“Muslim Americans Should Support Legalizing Same-Sex Marriage” – Michael Muhammad Knight for GOATMILK DEBATES

THE GOATMILK DEBATES” will be an ongoing series featuring two debaters tackling an interesting or controversial question in a unique, irreverent manner.

Each debater makes their opening argument. They can elect to post a rebuttal.

The winner will be decided by the online audience and judged according to the strength of their argument.

The motion: “”Muslim Americans Should Not Oppose Legalization Of Same Sex Marriage””

For the motion:  Michael Muhammad Knight and Sabir Ibrahim [Read his post here]

Against the motion: Mahdi Ahmad [Read his post here] and  Sister A.  [Read her Opening Argument here.]


First things first: this is not an attempt to reconcile the Qur’an, Prophetic tradition, or classical Islamic thought with the cause of LGBTQ rights.  Others more qualified than myself are doing that work.  In fact, my argument depends somewhat on such a project being impossible.

Let’s take for granted that Islam has no room for the accommodation of homosexuality—ignoring not only the efforts of reformist scholars, but also the numerous queer Muslims who are at peace with their bodies, hearts, and Creator.  For a moment, let’s pretend that these intersections do not exist.  If the question of Islamic doctrine has already been answered, then our next question is how the Muslim community should treat a community with which it shares nothing.

Prop 8’s overturning interrupted the latest anti-Islamic hysteria, the proposals to ban niqab in Europe and uproar over New York’s so-called “Ground Zero Mosque.”  I oppose niqab bans and support the Cordoba House, because I believe in the rights of Muslims to live among non-Muslims and be recognized as full citizens.  I believe that Muslims should support same-sex marriage because this respect is not only something we take; we must also give.  American Muslims do not have an argument against same-sex marriage that is morally superior to objections against the Cordoba House.  It’s the same issue: America is debating itself as to whether minority communities can live openly and proudly by their own values.

There is a strong temptation—I myself had felt it at one time—for Muslims to seek acceptance by insisting that in America’s culture war, we hold much in common with the Christian Right.  Some Muslims would contend that Islam is not anti-American at all, precisely because their values align with the Latter-Day Saints who organized and funded for Prop 8.  On some level, this seems natural, and it’s not totally off the mark.  However, it also imitates an ugly precedent in American history: European immigrants who, when treated with scorn and suspicion by Anglo-Saxons, sought acceptance as fully “white” by joining in the lynching of black people.

Muslims who think that a shared Abrahamic morality makes them more American are missing something big: the defining “culture war” of this moment is not Queer vs. Straight, Islam vs. the West, or Christians vs. Non-Christians: it is Tolerance vs. Intolerance, Equality vs. Inequality.  In this war, as Intolerance pulls out its hair with panic and issues the same irrational screams about Muslims and Queers (They’re imposing their ways on us!  They’re taking over!  They’re destroying America!), the overturning of Prop 8 and the apparent triumph of the Cordoba House are victories for the same side.

For Muslims who oppose same-sex marriage on religious and moral grounds: stay true to yourselves.  Teach your values to your children.  Pour your opinions into books and hand them out on street corners.  Establish mosques in which homosexuality is denounced every Friday afternoon; but do so with the knowledge that in our real culture war, there are all kinds of people who will defend your place in American life.  This includes not only a wide spectrum of Muslims, but also non-Muslims: Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists, secular humanists, feminists, and homosexuals.

Yes, the American Muslim community has gay friends.  There are homosexuals who will stand with Muslims and support a religion that, at least in popular interpretations, condemns them to the point of capital punishment and otherworldly hellfire.  In the name of upholding one aspect of Islamic tradition, however, some of us will refuse to return the favor.  We will ask to be treated as equals by those who are different from us, but turn our backs when they ask the same.

That’s a bad way to do business, and I can’t believe that it would be a Sunna.

It was really my hope to avoid getting into religion, because I’ve said that this is not a religious issue; but I’m stuck on the narratives of our first hijra, our flight from persecution at the hands of the Meccans.  Unable to achieve safety and dignity for the Muslims in Mecca, the Prophet sent them to Ethiopia, to live under the protection of a kind Christian king.  As Islam opposes the idea that God could beget a son, the Meccans used this theological divide to argue that the king should not grant asylum to Muslims; but intolerance lost out, and the Muslims lived in peaceful cooperation with their new Christian friends.

From what I understand, the sin of regarding a man as God is a far worse offense against classical Islam  than butt sex; but the Prophet placed his community in the care of a man who worshiped Jesus Christ.  For me, the lesson is that Muslims can in fact be good neighbors.  While we’re talking Sunna, let’s remember this hadith: “Not one of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.”  If all Americans are our brothers and sisters, let us care for them and accept care from them.

Against the motion: Mahdi Ahmad [Read his post here] and  Sister A.  [Read her Opening Argument here.]

Michael Muhammad Knight’s sixth book, Journey to the End of Islam, tells the story of his travels to Pakistan, Syria, Egypt, and Ethiopia, and his pilgrimage to Mecca.

107 thoughts on ““Muslim Americans Should Support Legalizing Same-Sex Marriage” – Michael Muhammad Knight for GOATMILK DEBATES

  1. My option is that Muslim could support same sex cival marriage to oppose the Far Rightwing Christian who are so against homosexual haveing any right at all. With than understand it they rape than child they will face criminal charge and be trail in a court of law not by than mod.

  2. I personally don’t favor same-sex marriages. From a religous perspective, I cannot encourage sinful behavior. Besides, it basically grosses me out. However, the laws in America are based on liberty and justice for all. I’ve listened closely to both sides – Truth is, there are no non-religious reasons why I can oppose the union of law-abiding citizens. BTW – Eating pork and most Reality TV shows gross me out, too. But they are legal. And as long as being able to practice my faith is legal, I won’t be the one to deny others the right to follow their legally-protected principles.

  3. so just ignore the Quran ayats forbidding it?

    27:55 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!

    26:166 “And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!”

    • No one is asking you to participate in homosexuality because you approve of the rights for others to do so. This article is entirely about civil rights in the US from a Muslim perspective. It’s not about searching the Quran for each translated instance of its stance on homosexual behavior. Clearly, the Quran frowns on that behavior – but the US is not a theocracy and therefore should not legislate the personal behavior of its citizens – be they regarding religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation. For personal behavior that involves transgressions against society (murder, theft, arson, etc) there are laws in place. So again, from the civil rights perspective, how would allowing rights to same-sex couples (even if you disagree with them and their behavior) be un-Islamic given that you are not actually participating in the behavior yourself? The actions on which God would judge you would be based on your tolerance or intolerance of another human being to live peacefully among you – not on being a homosexual by proxy (which is an illogical argument anyway). Supporting someone’s right to liberty doesn’t necessarily mean you support their personal lifestyle if you disagree with it (as the writer mentions in his article). There should be room for that in any open society. Our first amendment guarantees freedom of speech. That means if the KKK want to have a parade, they are fully entitled to do so. That doesn’t mean I support their ideas – only their right to peacefully gather, as well as my right to protest. That’s the discussion in a nutshell and is the basis of a pluralistic society.

    • Brother, those ayats are taken out of context. Do you do the same throughout the Qur’an? Just as the “kill unbelievers” ayat is used by extremists to wage war against everyone (even other Muslims), taking these ayats out of context of the history of Lot leads to an incorrect interpretation.

  4. I think the Muslim stance should be something like:

    While maintaining that homosexuality is a sin, and that God detests it, we acknowledge people’s inherent right to choose their own lifestyles, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others.

  5. Thank you for not making this a religious issue! I can’t help but side with this argument. The reasoning is absent of personal beliefs and really breaks it down to a legal issue of equality.

  6. I appreciate Michael Muhammad Knight bringing the truth of the matter out. This is about tolerance, also for all you Muslims out there saying “God forgive us”, remember that Allah created gay people.

    I would like to point out to Michael that “butt sex” is sort of a one dimensional aspect. If you watch A Jihad for Love, this is talked about and also what about Lesbians and transgendered people?

    I totally disagree with the opposing viewpoint that claims there are only 2 genders, there is a continuum of genders. And most importantly, as Muslims we are not to judge others…remember that part?


  7. The disgust with same-sex partnerships (and same sex…sex) HAS to be a generational issue. I have been a part of four different university Muslim Student Associations across the county and, for the most part, the new generation is very liberal when it comes to sex and sexual orientation. I understand that many of us, both exchange students and children of immigrants, are very cosmopolitan, but it still seems that the newer generation is destined to phase out the bigotry of the one prior. Even my parents are proud of my relationship with my male partner, and support the relationship that any two consenting adults choose to have with each other. So remember, to all you conservative Muslisms, you are a dying breed. This new generation, your children included, are forging new assemblages of what it means to be Muslim.

  8. The disgust with same-sex partnerships (and same sex…sex) HAS to be a generational issue. I have been a part of four different university Muslim Student Associations across the county and, for the most part, the new generation is very liberal when it comes to sex and sexual orientation. I understand that many of us, both exchange students and children of immigrants, are very cosmopolitan, but it still seems that the newer generation is destined to phase out the bigotry of the one prior. Even my parents are proud of my relationship with my male partner, and support the relationship that any two consenting adults choose to have with each other. So remember, to all you conservative Muslims, you are a dying breed. This new generation, your children included, are forging new assemblages of what it means to be Muslim.

  9. As long as the homosexual(I also include Woman) donot engage in child rape or rape of adult they could be allow the same civil right as any other person. An huge majority of homosexual disapprove of child rapeist and the one who rape other adult. In one state than jury of mostly straight people expect for two homosexual was ready to left two homosexual rapeist and murders go free out of fear of being seem as homophobic,the two homosexual said to the straight that as homosexual they consider those men rapist and murders an the rest of the jury change they vote.

  10. I than an 60 year old man with than brain damage speech center who also didnot learn correct gammar and spelling is than problen. There are quite afew eldest one that support you younger one in what you doing.

  11. @Brian C. Hoff- Thank you! I always forget to mention the strong support from the brave and amazing older generation. For that, I apologize and applaud you!

    • I was raise in America than only convert after 9-11. Even some of the america who conert than long time ago are changeing to than middle east thinking

    • Abdullah, what is pathetic and disgusting is the lack of real conversation about such issues which Muslims usually refuse to engage in. How do you think we have gone from being the most enlightened and peaceful group of humans on the earth to being some of the most disgusting and pathetic? Think of The Prophet, aleyhi salaam. What would Muhammad do? He would have compassion, he would encourage discussion, he would have empathy. THAT is the Islam that will cure the ills of the world brother.

  12. I as hetero muslim-american agree with you completely, for a very simple fact. The very reason we can practice our religion freely is the same reason that homosexuals should be free to marry. we have separation of church and state for a reason, and cannot impose our religous rights and wrongs on those who do not agree with our beliefs. Forced ideology is what has caused our world to be so war torn to begin with

  13. I agree with what you’re arguing, and am glad you’re bold enough to make such an argument when the responses are so heated. Very well written and thought out article, thank you.

  14. But how do you reconcile this with your faith? Isn’t that the central question? Are we to tell our children that they can’t be gay, but that we fully support others’ right to be gay? Homosexuality is wrong, but it’s ok when others do it?

    I don’t have the answer. But I don’t think this is it. You can’t just assume that the religious argument is resolved before making your point, because the religious argument undermines your point.

    What I do find to be a more credible point in this article is the last one about the Christian king. It shows that there is room for engaging with others who might be doing things that are un-Islamic. For that matter, what abt the hadith on the prostitute whose past sins were forgiven because she showed mercy to an animal. Adultery is as serious a sin as homosexuality.

    Enjoining good and forbidding evil does not mandate that we turn against homosexuals. As the hadith shows, Allah (s) forgave a woman whom Muslims would have cast out, if they followed that dictum.

    • Shazia, I do not tell my children they “can not be gay”, just as an elephant would not be told “you can not have a long truck”. Allah creates us as He does. I don’t believe homosexuality is wrong and most importantly you will find many other Muslims who feel the same way. There is a terrific film called “Jihad for Love” that you can get on Netflix that is about this interesting and important issue.

      • “When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.”- Hadith

        If you doubt the authenticity of this hadith, look to the Quran:

        “We also sent Lut : He said to his people : “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” Qur’an 7:80-81

        Homosexuality is a clear sin in Islam. There is no ambiguity. Just like you would tell your children that they can’t lie or steal, you should also tell them homosexuality is wrong, based on the above Quranic verse and more.

        The question, to me, is not whether or not homosexuality is a sin, but rather, how to treat homosexuals as an inevitable part of the society around you. I believe that the final judgement rests with Allah (s). We should deal with homosexuals with patience and civility, just like the Prophet (s) would have done.

    • Another example is the companion who had a drinking problem. He was caught (and punished) for drinking on multiple occasions. But when some of the other companions began to curse him, the prophet (saaws) himself defended the man saying “he loves Allah and loves his messenger”.

      This whole discussion regarding homosexuality is not really suited to a simple pro-con debate because there are really multiple questions:

      From a shariah perspective: what is the ruling on certain sex acts? What are the requirements for a valid marriage? Does sin affect the basic regard and respect which Muslims owe one another? That humans owe one another?

      And then in a non-Muslim society (and the US in particular) should Muslims try to make everything that’s haram also illegal? Or is it better to contribute and promote a vision of society where everyone has the space to live according to their own principles and values?

    • But how do you reconcile this with your faith? Isn’t that the central question? Are we to tell our children that they can’t be gay, but that we fully support others’ right to be gay? Homosexuality is wrong, but it’s ok when others do it?

      Pretty much, yeah. You’ll just have to tell your kids that other people arrive at other moral values that seem intellectually honest and coherent to them.

      People also question and leave Islam, you know. You’ll have to teach your kids that they have a right to do that too if they feel that this is what makes sense to them intellectually.

      It’s best not to turn this into a religious argument, because the religious argument fails miserably in the face of secular philosophical reasoning and gobs and gobs of social science research.

  15. When I was younger I talk to both side Law Enforcement and criminal about when America ban the manufaction, transportation and selling of Alchol drink but it wasnot illegal to drink it. It was than utterly failure as than social experint. Too many entic group where into drink alchol drinks. Alot of law enforcement people told congress and state legurate bodies that it was than dumb idear that will read to touble and problens.

  16. Shazia, when verses are taken out of Quran without the historical context what we get is interpretations that have sent people like bin Laden to “kill all the unbelievers where you find them”. We all know the context of that verse was during war when a treaty had been broken. People have also taken the verse about the people of Lut out of historical context. I will not tell my children homosexuality is wrong because Allah created those people the way they are. There are many facets to gender, it is not just two sided. That is not my opinion, that is fact.

    • Salaams and Ramadan Mubarak,

      I think the challenge is that in the case of OBL it is very easy to state what that context is. And moreover it is easy to find textual support from the Quran and sunnah and interpretive resources from the classical Islamic tradition to clearly support the protected status of non-combatants/civilians.

      On the other hand, in the case of homosexuality things seem to be going in the other direction. What is the historical context which is missing from the story of Sodom? It is difficult (as far as I can tell) to give a pro-homosexuality “context” without going to the Bible (which is a weird move). It is easy to find ayat and hadith whose plain meanings seem to say homosexual acts are wrong. And virtually the entire classical tradition says homosexual acts are wrong.

      I wouldn’t necessarily rule out that there are some possible arguments that can create *some* kind of social space for homosexuals (e.g. the right of privacy which says that what people do behind closed doors is no ones business) but it is still going to take some work to argue that sodomy is halal.

      • Ok Abdul-Halim, lets say that sodomy is haram for the sake of this discussion. What about Lesbians, transgendered people, or non-sodomy sexual practices? You don’t really need to answer, just showing that this is a complicated issue, not an easy black or white picture that one can say haram/halal.

  17. Salaams,

    I agree that the issue can be complicated and there are many different components. There is an affect piece (love vs. lust), there are rulings about specific physical actions (e.g. sodomy, other forms of sex, physical affection) and there is a gender identity piece. I suppose that there is also a legal piece involving the nature and requirements of marriage (or ownership or mutaa). But I also think that if you follow traditional scholarship there are rulings for those pieces too.

    Personally, I don’t have a visceral reaction against homosexuality. And I actually wouldn’t absolutely rule out the possibility that someone could come up with some kind of principled argument in favor of same sex relationships. (for example, if at one point, being away from ones wife on a trip was enough of a “hardship” to justify temporary marriage, maybe one can argue that orientation is enough of a hardship to justify gay marriage) and maybe one could come up with a new modern liberal madhab to issue new rulings for everything… but is that really the right move?

  18. Salaams from DownUnder.
    1. MMK – you make some very insightful observations. It is a pity that some within our community cannot see the point you are making. Bravo to you!
    2. Prophet Lot lived in Sodom – which is situated on a highway between Arabia and Syria. A Prophet of Islam lived amongst those ‘who transgressed all bounds’. Prophet Lot repeatedly warned the people of his town. Sodomy is an abomination in the Qur’an.
    3. It was Allah that destroyed these towns (such as Ad and Thamud which also had objectionable practices such as highway robbery etc), and not man. Not man.
    4. No person knows what is truly in the heart of another person. If that person repents – then it is because of Allah.
    5. To deny a person the opportunity to repent and seek Allah’s forgiveness, in my mind is a massive sin. You deny the person the right to self fulfilment, and take the position of final arbiter – which is in Allah’s hands alone, as the ultimate judge. What I’m saying here is any violence towards the G&L community is illegal and contrary to our beliefs as Muslims.
    6. The corrolary to the above point is that to welcome someone into Islam is a great thing.
    7. People are attracted by the openess and tolerance of Islam.
    My point is that as Muslims we should firmly and clearly articulate our religious principles from the Qur’an. If G&L folk want to marry – that is their perogative. If we don’t agree with it, as citizens (and in accordance with our religious convictions), we can vote against it. But in the interests of fairness, we ought to explain to the G&L community our basis for opposing gay marriages. The question is whether by not voting against gay marriage are we as Muslims somehow approving (albeit not directly) of what the Qur’an states is ‘trangressing all limits’?

  19. I think its laudable to want to reciprocate the LGBTQ’s (how many letters is it, now?) community’s stance of our rights. But, two things: does that community truly support us and is such a notion widely shared and current among them? Secondly, its quite problematic not to include religion in this when addressing a religious community. I’d even ignore the prohibition on gay sex b saying that they are not Muslims, so our rules don’t apply to them. However, its also an Islamic principle not to support or facilitate or even speak well of sinful behaviors.

    So, perhaps the best thing we can do is just be silent about it and not vote one way or the other.

  20. How pathetic can ignorant jahil Muslims get? Supporting homosexuals for their supposed support of our community is playing politics. We cannot sacrifice the moral and principals of out deen for political expediency. There are plenty of homosexuals who are dead against Islam. Pim Fortuyn ring a bell? How about Christopher Caldwell? Islam is against homosexuality, there’s no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Nor should Muslims in any way or form support the promotion of it. Just because the Europeans and some Americans have lost their minds thanks to secular extremism doesntt mean we should follow in their backward carnal cultural chauvinism and profound misguidance.
    And Khadija Anderson, there is no “misinterpretation” of any ayahs by those who have properly cited them, who are you to make halal what Allah(swt) made haram?

    • Islam is against homosexuals.
      I am a Muslim.
      Thus I am against homosexuals.

      This is really an example of the simplemindness of uneducated people unable to think for themselves.
      Poor DrM,are you a human being or a a zombie with a preprogrammed mind?
      Think friend! think for yourself!

      • Simple mindedness and lack of education is I what I see in your pathetic reply, Rousseau. You actually had no reply but went straight for the ad hominem route because you had no argument. You’re not a Muslim, nor do you know anything about Islam. Kafirs are not going to invade our religion and change it their carnal hearts desire, it’s as simple as that. Are you a rational human being or a retarded white cultural chauvinist who can’t handle having your backward rubbish being dismantled?

        We will not sacrifice our laws and principles for your convenience or political correctness.

      • Wrong Khadija. We are all creations of Allah(swt), but it doesn’t stop there, we as Muslims have been given rights and responsibilities to live our lives by. We follow the standard set by Allah(swt), not the one(or lack of) set by America or Europe. If you are a Muslim and you want to go anywhere, start acquainting yourself with what Quran and Hadiths says instead of the ignorant mouthings of politicians, sociologists and psychiatrists who will say anything for votes and money. You’re just trying twist Islam to your own white cultural baggage, and there is NO room for homosexuality in Islam.
        I’ll ask you again, who are you to make halal what Allah(swt) made haram?

  21. I am SO glad the Prophet aleyhi salaam was not a hater like you DrM. You need a character check akhi. It’s people like you that make people leave Islam or never enter it. Ever heard of COMPASSION? Most likely not. Your heart has what the Prophet, aleyhi salaam called a black spot.

    • OK Khadija,
      You are from flesh and blood, a real human being with a heart und tolerance for people,even if they are homosexual or a kafir freemason like me.
      Dr.M(axtor)(our poor modernity hating guy was so stupid to choose the name of a computer harddisk- a kafir invention- as his nickname)
      Dr.M is an example,an archetype of the fanatic intolerant Muslim.He brings much harm to your beloved religion.

      • Rouusseau, I see you continue your further descent into stupidity. No logic, just retarded adhominem attacks by white western cultural chauvinists. I don’t really blame you as you have no counter-arguments based on any logic or common sense. Modernity hating? So says the defender of perversions! Why should as I a Muslim go against the laws of my faith to satisfy your sick carnal cravings? Homosexuality has no place in Islam. I have no interest in you, or what you do with yourself with which orifice, but I will NOT live my life to please ignorant kafirs like you. “Kafir inventions” indeed! You’d still be languishing in caves if not for my ancestors whose achievements you’ve been living off for centuries.
        We’re not your colonial subjects. You are devoid of any values or ethics, bloated with arrogance and self-exaltation, incompetent, unproductive, emotionally and ethically bankrupt, and incapable to perform effectively and efficiently by themselves, thriving on human capital, wealth, and resources of other people, living in their unrealistic bubble, fooled and fueled by unethically controlled mainstream media. What’s next? Incest and beastiality? Oh never mind, it’s already partially legal in Europe. It’s very simple, Rousseau : you don’t tell me what to do and how to live my life according to the dictates of my faith, and I won’t tell you where you can stick your intolerant white paternalism.

    • Still avoiding the main points, Khadija? What did the Prophet(saw) say about homosexuality? He condemned it. So are you going to denounce him as a hater lacking compassion? Black spots on the heart come from those who ignore their obligatory salah, not from those who adhere to the standard set by Allah(swt).
      You’re a sick and ignorant munafiqa trying to twist the deen to suit your nafs.

      • Khadija,
        I suggest to end the discussion with that Dr.M.
        I am convinced now it is not a human being but a computer, an automated answer machine.
        His makers have loaded his hard disk ( a Maxtor 160GB) with the Koran, the Hadiths and some Salafistic fatwa’s.
        This computer is programmed to interprete everything on his hard disk litterally.
        So if you speak about Homosexuality he immediately finds that Allah has forbidden it and thus that it is haram.
        If I say that I am an atheist,even a freemason, this computer will tell me that I must be killed aso aso.
        Then he babbles about the Djahal, the appocalyps, the afterlife and other phantasies.
        Don’t waste your time Khadija it is useless to fight an answermachine…

      • DrM:

        Don’t you think it’s a bit disingenuous to call someone out for an ad hominem attack and then use those attacks yourself? You’re clearly writing out of irrationality and hate. Again, we’re circling the same non-issue –> no one is telling you how to live your personal life. You have every right to be as religious or non-religious as you please both within the dictates of your faith (“La ikraha fi dini”; Let there be no compulsion in religion) and within the laws of the infidel lands in which I presume you live (US First Amendment). Islam grants the greatest of human rights and you do not have the power to deny that to anyone. Muslims have as much free-will as others. If you feel their decisions are wrong, then proper guidance should be your light rather than the hateful rhetoric which shows your own ignorance and bias. Muslims who disagree with you are pathetic, stupid, and disgusting? – don’t you feel any sense of shame saying that during the holy month of Ramadan? No wonder some people the world over (not just the West) see Muslims as backwards animals.

        As far as being bloated with arrogance – “your” people all over the non-western world are just as guilty of violence, sin, corruption, moral degeneracy, and extreme paternalism for which you so willfully and hatefully judge those of the West. BTW – neither of the posters to whom you show such scorn ever forced you to accept anything – instead they merely asked for you to be considerate, patient and tolerant towards others as the Prophet surely would have been. And if you disbelieve the Prophet’s wise, gentle nature or the vast beneficence and mercy of Allah then you too are a kafir. Islam is not a religion of war and intolerance. You are granted full rights to practice your faith in the way you see fit as does any other Muslim. But once you begin to divide belief in Allah and attempt to intercede between another Muslim and his deen then you are acting out of Islamic character and attempting to act on behalf of Allah – and that is not a right which is granted to you. If we say Islam the word means peace, then peace is primarily achieved through justice. And justice is for all mankind. If you believe those who disagree with you are kafirs then follow the dictates of Surah Al-Kafiroon “Lakum deenakum waliya deen”; To you your way, and to me mine. And end it there, minus all the juvenile vitriol.

  22. @JJ.Rousseau,

    Still posting nonsense I see. Still trying to piggyback off Khadija? what’s the matter, don’t have any arguments of your own for me to demolish. Your attempts at humor are almost as bad as your failed talking points. I don’t blame you because lying is childish antics all you have left. Apocalypse? freemasonry? atheist? Are you on crack? I know a great detox center in Chicago for guys like you. At least do a spell check you jackass. I have no interest in you, or your white washed BS, I will NOT follow my faith or interpret it for your satisfaction. It’s just that simple. Don’t like it? I don’t care, go watch Will and Grace.
    But hey, let me get all geeky on you, your hard drive is badly defragmented and full of bad sectors.

  23. @Yasmin,

    You’re an example of person who doesn’t read too well and projects your own balderdash in the mouth of others. Show me where I called any Muslim a kafir(non-Muslim). The sheer amount of ignorance and stupidity in your post would take a post three times as long to correct. I’m only going to address a few of your silly points :
    I didn’t attack anyone initially, ending with a question for Khadija, I responded to Rousseau who picked a fight he wasn’t prepared for. He made a wisecracker about “kafir inventions” and “modernity” like many arrogant white westerners often do to degrade Muslims, because they lack any coherent argument but feel they can nonchalant in their quasi-racist notions. He got my answer. Speaking of which you might want to read up some history books as you seem to not to be well versed in that area as well.
    Finally moving onto religion, it’s almost funny that you misrepresent how Qur’an. It’s not “forcing” religion to state the obvious, it’s honesty. I’ll ask you the same question I asked Khadija : Who are you to make halal what Allah(swt) has made haram? It’s not hatred to condemn what Allah(swt) and all the Prophet(p.b.u.t) have condemned. Homosexuality is one such sin which is strongly condemned in Islam. This isn’t Sunday brunch Christianity where you can make up and justify what you want while ignoring clear cut rules.
    Critical thinking and knowledge is not your forte. The far Right is not going to manipulate Muslims into a position where we will go along with the excesses of the far Left. You want to be a homosexual, go for it, nobody cares, but don’t try to wiggle it into the deen and make excuses for perversions because you don’t want the west to see Muslims as “backward animals”(a centuries old perverted image of their own manufacture). I have no interest in the platitudes and inferiority complex of colonized minds which seek the validation from an uninterested white father.

    • Yasmin,Khadiia,
      It is really hopeless that automated answeringmachine called Dr.M
      The only thing we can do is to try to let his hard disk crash.
      First attempt: Allah doesn’t exist.
      Second attempt: there is no afterlife
      Third attempt:XXXXX

      • Yawn, still flapping from both ends of your mouth, Rousseau? You call me an answering machine yet keep replying to posts not addressed to you, lol. Allah(swt) most certainly exists, but I don’t expect a lowly hedonistic materialistic creature of your caliber to understand such concepts. Glad to see your true nature surface, when you can’t manipulate Muslims to agreeing with your misguidance you childishly shout that there is no reality beyond the one here. How typical of the failed breed. Atheism is the opium of European nihilism and debauchery.

      • No, you’re a lying hypocrite, Khadija. Don’t project you insecurities on me just because I refuse to go along with your white culture tainted promotion and acceptanceof homosexuality, which is grave sin in Islam.

  24. Dr M
    You really should should read your own words.

    1. You stated this “Show me where I called any Muslim a kafir(non-Muslim).” – August 21, 2010 at 9:26 am

    Here is your evidence:

    (i) “How pathetic can ignorant jahil Muslims get?” – August 18, 2010 at 1:59 am;

    (ii) How do you know that JJ Rousseau is not a Muslim?

    (iii) “You’re a sick and ignorant munafiqa trying to twist the deen to suit your nafs”. – August 19, 2010 at 10:19 am

    A. Where did you study Islam?

    B. Why do you have so much hate and anger in you?

    C. Why do you hide behind an avatar – if you are unashamed of your views, why don’t you disclose who you are?

    D. You really need to lighten up – the menace in your email is not becoming. Be respectful of others, even it you don’t agree with their views. State your position firmly and consistently, and don’t attack the person. Very unbecoming, and not very civil.


  25. @Hyder,

    You really ought to develop some critical thinking before asking silly, emotionally loaded, rhetorical questions. Curb you enthusiasm as you have no evidence, you misconstrued my words, but I’ll refute your points anyway :

    1) Jahil in present day context means ignorance, not kufr. Nor is it takfir. Look at the context of the sentence where I used the words “jahil Muslims,” i.e. ignorant Muslims who lack knowledge of the deen. An ignorant Muslim is not a kafir. This is different from Jahileeya, the pre-islamic period of ignorance.

    2) Common sense. He was confirmed it in his last childish reply on me(and Islam) as well. Satisfied? I will NOT water down the Deen to placate arrogant and malicious kafirs like him. Ever.

    3) A munafiq is a hypocrite, not a kafir. Anybody can be a munafiq, Muslim or non-Muslim.

    a)This is a question which should be addressed to you as your knowledge of Islam is frankly, pathetic.

    b)Another silly question based on a false premise. It is not hate or anger to speak the truth stand firm on Islamic principles. Are you so spineless and afraid of being labeled an “extremist” by those rule the world today that you’ll change or deny the dictates of the Deen? The yard stick of Allah(swt) is different from those who have legalized prostitution, zina, homosexuality, and in some cases even pedophilia and bestiality.

    c) Silly adhominem which has nothing to do with the primary subject of the post. Nor does it give your argument any validity. That being said, people should try to preserve their privacy, especially in this day and age.

    d) You need to grow up, and stop misrepresenting my position. In fact, you should be quiet and learn from those who have more knowledge that you. This is a serious matter, of Islamic ethics, and morality. Save the “respect,” lecture for a liar like Rousseau who started babbling nonsense about freemasonry, the Apocalypse, “kafir” inventions. The bottom line is this : Homosexuality is a grave sin, Allah(swt) has condemned it, as did Prophet Muhammed(sws). Muslims must in no way or form promote it or this “gay marriage” rubbish.
    Try to keep up, next time.

  26. Dr M

    You are a angry and very sad little man.

    You haven’t answered any of my questions, and instead have written utter rubbish – so where did you study Islam – on the internet?

    May Allah have mercy of you, and provide you some civility.

    Not a very polite way to dialogue with a fellow Muslim.


  27. Hyder,

    You are weak minded munafiq and an appeaser. That’s the sort of civility you’re going to get out of me in response to your slander. Don’t pick a fight with your betters, dear in-house brown sahib. No apologies to fasiqs, kafirs and white washed Mozlem bootlickers.
    I answered your rhetorical questions because I had to the time waste on you. Your response proves your evasiveness and childish inability to address my specific points. Here’s a straight forward question : What is Islam’s position on homosexuality? Your answer should tell us how honest or dishonest you are in representing clear cut matters of the Deen.
    Put up or shut up.

  28. Welcome back Dr M.
    I think you are afraid, ane hence you seek to hide behind a fake name and fake blog. You may think you are secure, but your IP address gives you away. Not very hard for me to locate you and find out who really are.
    Again where did you study Islam? Not a very hard question is it?
    Read my earlier post – or is that too hard for you?
    Again not very Islamic of you the way you carry on. You have real issues and I suggest that you get professional help – as I am a Muslim and care for you, I can recommend some very good people.
    With much brotherly love and affection,
    Hyder Gulam FRCNA

    • Still engaged in wishful thinking and being evasive Hyder? Afraid? LoL! I’m shaking in my boots at your ability to track my IP and discern my identity. But that’s not the topic of discussion is it? Not that I blame you as you have no case focusing instead of useless childish distractions. I’ve studied Islam under real Muslims unafraid of speaking the haque which is more then I can say for cowardly munafiq like you.
      Not that one needs to have a degree from Al-Azhar to state that Islam condemns homosexuality. The question of this topic is on homosexuality and whether Muslims should align with such a group, and whether Islam accepts homosexuality. I’ve answered your silly questions why are so petrified of answering just one of mine? Why are you so afraid of stating Islam’s position on this matter? Hmm, what’s the matter, afraid of being labeled an extremist by those who hold no real values? Come on tinkerbell, spit it out.
      I don’t think you need professional help as your condition is that of little brown sahib house Muslim eager to please the establishment. But you if still want to, a buddy of mine from Med school is a psychiatrist based in Chicago, tell him I sent you and he’ll give you a discount.
      As I said before put up or shut up.

      • Dr M
        I do not think any Muslim would post comments as you do.
        I also have doubts whether you ever passed Med school.
        Why do you lie about being based in Jamica. We both know it’s not the truth.
        This is an example of of your putrid comments in just your last post:
        1. cowardly munafiq;
        2. silly questions;
        3. tinkerbell;
        4. little brown sahib house Muslim.
        Do you really think this is the way Muslims address fellow Muslims or even other human beings? Is this the way you talk to your patients?
        You make no sense, and I don’t understand a thing you have commented on at all. All you have done is rage and posted crap.
        Now that you have offered please pass on the your buddy’s contact (happy to pass on your referral – what’s your details – or will you afraid of revealing your identity) – so now, either put up or shut up right?

  29. Assalam alaikum Dr. M.

    I actually do believe that Islam condemns homosexual behavior and that it is unequivocally haram. In that, I agree with you. But I am sympathetic to their struggle for civil rights in America because Muslims are in the same boat in our relationship to the government.

    The way you are going about this debate is really, extremely rude. Calling people names is a really childish way to have a discussion and does a great disservice to the point you’re trying to make.

    • Waliakum Asalam Muse,

      This is a very clear cut matter, so what you or I “think” about it is irrelevant. I am not at all sympathetic to what Allah(swt) has condemned, nor are we in the same boat as them. As far as rudeness goes, I give what I get. I asked Khadija a very simple question because of her defense of what Allah has prohibited. In return, I got excuses and attacks from trolls. Some of these house Muslims want to play rough defending haram, so be it, but in doing so they can’t complain and cry when I put them in their place. I have no interest what people do in the privacy of their homes but will not support anyting forbidden just because of political convenience.
      Again, their notions of right and wrong are based upon the shifting whims and sands of usurious corporate consumer western secularism. These are the same propagandists who are pushing so-called same sex marriages down the throats of Americans. Muslims are not going to change their moral standards and Islamic Law because the Frankfurt School indoctrinated secularists don’t agree. Muslims have their way of life–which is based upon Tawheed, sincerity to Allah, and righteousness, and salvation–and the kaafirs have their way of life–which is based upon kufr, rebellion against Allah’s Laws and condemnation to Hell for perpetuity. Muslims don’t want to follow the way of a damned people.
      With Allah(swt) is the success.

      • Dr.M

        You say to believe in Allah and to follow commandments:that is your choice and there are many others who made the same choice as you.
        I do not believe in Allah or any other religion: that is my choice and there are many others who made the same choice as me.
        It is impossible to find out who is right but we have to live together.Thus there is not way out: we need to tolerate each others faith or conviction.
        It turns out that most people are heterosexual and a minority is born as a homosexual.They didn’t ask for it.
        So if a Lesbian woman falls in love with another woman, or a gay man with another man: so let it be!
        Do not condemn these people, do not impose your ” religious” commands.These commands and prescriptions concern you not others.
        That’s the reason why Muslims should support the legalisation of same sex marriages.
        It doesn’t concern Muslims but others who are free to do what want and who are not “submitted” to an or other Medieval “religion”.

  30. Dr M – back out of day release I see? Do you only have access to the internet once a week?
    I think you should seriously read your posts – you are really deluding yourself.
    As for name calling – again, not very Muslim of you.
    1. Where did you study Islam?
    2. Why do you hide behind a moniker – are you ashamed of your views and your rants?
    3. Why do resort to abusing people who don’t accept your world view?
    My offer of help still stands. You ought to take it – as your posts reveal a very negative line of thinking, of which your hate will utlimately consume you.

    • @Hyder,

      Back again for a beating I see? Still going on like a broken record with your silly distractors. My apologies for not getting back to you right away, some of us actually work for a living and have real priorities in life. Sharabi, kababi and harami types of Muslims are so easy to deflate. Enough with your whiining,does Islam endorse homosexuality or not? Come on, speak up!

      • lol – a beating from a shadow like you – hahahahaha…
        No need to apologise.
        You haven’t provide me your medical referral re Chicago – are you backing down now?
        So what do you for a crust – what’s your line of work?
        What are your priorities that you mentioned – put up or shut up 🙂
        Read my earlier post – not too hard for you is it, or is it?
        “Speak up” – this is written communication, how can I ‘speak up’? Where did you learn English?
        Guess we’ll hear from your rabid rants next week – in the meantime have a good week and Selamat Hari Raya and wishing you and your family: גמר חתימה טובה.

    • @Brian,

      The question here is NOT about murder, it’s about gay marriage and whether Muslims should support a political alliance with homosexuals. I have made the case against this based on the Qur’an and Sunnah. It’s a very straight forward matter.
      But thanks for acknowledging that Islam is against Homosexuality. I don’t know if you are a Muslim or not, but you’ve demonstrated more knowledge and honesty then some of the clowns here with Muslim names.

  31. I don’t think DrM is a Muslim. He has looked on the net and found Islamic terms, or he was raised in a Muslim country and therefore knows Islamic terms.

    The disgusting language he uses is proof that he is no Muslim.


    • @Khadija,

      Oh so now you declare takfir on Muslims who you disagree with. Bravo! What “disgusting language” have I spoken? Islam is against homosexuality in any and all forms, so who are you make halal what Allah(swt) has made haram? It’s a simple question which you have dodged, and which shows you are theologically illiterate. The fact of the matter is you have failed to justify your points and are now down to silly theories about “being raised in Muslim countries.” Your white paternalistic racism is showing, my dear munafiqa.

  32. Mr Knight’s intelligent argument, supporting the motion, could not have been written any better. His pragmatic approach, wholly realizing the limitations of his argument and thereby avoiding the legalistic aspects of Islam on the matter, is a classic example of how a difficult debate argument must be handled.

    But what has surprised me, is the zealotry of some secular Muslims on the comments section in trying to establish the religious justification to sodomy and homosexuality.

    I sympathize with Dr M, for even with his excellent rebuttals, the secular zealots are refuse to understand the Islamic viewpoint on the matter.

    Islam is not something that is, because every Tom, Dick,and Harry wishes it to be. Islam is the Quran and the Sunnah. If anyone wishes to preach the Islamic viewpoint on any matter, they must provide material from Islamic sources ie. Quran & Sunnah.

  33. You’re still confused, this isn’t about you or me. I have no interest whatsoever whether you believe in the Almighty or not. I don’t care who you are, what you eat, who you sleep with. Nobody cares one bit. The topic is about homosexuality, gay marriage and the proposol that Muslims form an allience with them based in political expediency. We(i.e. Muslims) say no to such an allience, and no to homosexuality. You’re a kafir(non-Muslim), you have no right to intrude, invade and insist that we accept your your white cultural hang ups. Just like Muslims will NOT accept your military hegemony, we similarly reject your cultural attempts to dominate, corrupt and pervert. And no mistake about it, homosexuality is a white cultural trogan horse.
    Time for a little education. NO one is born homosexual, this is a myth homosexuals and their misguided supporters invented to absolve themselves of their behavior. It is an abnormal, sick, disgusting choice made by normal people. To this day the advocates of homosexuality have not been able to produce a single scientific paper which shows that there is a genetic basis for homosexuality. Just like they will never find a gene marker for pedophiles, rapists, meat eaters, vegetarians etc. And how could they? Homosexuals don’t reproduce so how could they pass their “gay” genes on? Does the “gay gene” turn on when straight guys in prison start engaging in homosexual activity? It is absurd nonsense based on secular white western political correctness.
    As for your cheap crack about “medievil religion,” let me repeat what I said before : you’d still be languishing in caves if not for my ancestors whose achievements you’ve been living off for centuries. Today you’re fast heading for the abyss created by your destructive, materialistic, primitive “culture,” and its long overdue, as the world is fed up and cannot sustain your sick apetites. Just don’t expect us to follow along like braindead colonial house slaves.
    Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    • Dr M please stop speading homoprobic. First we donot fully understand human DNA Map yet. 20 year ago they try to cure than illness cause by gentic damage to the body by adding DNA gene that would in theoy correct that illness it didnot work. Now they know there are other genes which must be set than certain way to have the gene you add to be accept into the human DNA. It might be than other 100 to 200 year before we can answer that question.

      • @Brian,

        My answer was aimed at JJ, not you. And you are wrong on all counts and your already poor knowledge on the subject is badly out of date. Syntax and grammar got you down as usual(“spreading homophobic”???). The human genome has already been mapped, the project started in 1990 and was completed in 2003.
        Homosexuality is not an illness, but an extremely bad choice made by misguided individuals and perverts. This is not the same thing as people with actual androgen related issues whose pathologenesis can be confirmed by karyotype analysis. There is no such thing as a “gay” gene so cease this unscientific nonsense.


        Yawn, still flapping your back cheeks I see. Anal retentive much? Your adolescent level immaturity is as ever, a hopeless distraction. You’ve been whining since Ramadan yet still too scared to state Islam’s position on homosexuality. Why are you so scared? Do you want a cookie, troll?
        Timid little brown sahibs with an inferiority complex are such a pathetic sight to behold.

    • Dr.M
      Your comments are so furious,so intolerant so full of hatred and completely out of range that I am convinced now that you are yourself an homosexual and that you are in conflict with your religious phantasies.
      It is a well known fact in psychology that someone who cannot accept some aspects of his character ( homosexuality, pedofilia,racism,miseantropy aso) is attacking those “defects” in other persons in order to exculpate himself.
      “Look how I am attacking homosexuals and I will be clear that I am not an homosexual myself…”
      Poor Dr.M.
      My suggestion is: accept your homosexuality, look for a nice boyfriend and you will be happy!

      • @JJ,

        You again. Yawn. Still whining your about white cultural nonsense? Playing pop psychologist,now? Your comments are sheer nonsense. The condition you’re babbling about is known as “reaction formation” in psychiatry. The old tactic of insisting that those against homosexuality are closeted homosexuals is an old smear, and which doesn’t bear any resemblance reality. This is like saying that those who hate killers, pedophiles, sugar are actually murderous child molesting diabetics. Not to mention that psychiatry is the most corrupt and least scientific field in medicine. Yes, you’re an idiot practicing pop psych in the style of Dr.Phil. Finding a bunch of down low homosexuals in the church is hardly evidence, it’s a poor anecdotal substitute. My point stands that there is no scientific basis for homosexuality and amount of your childish posts will change this cold hard fact. Either produce the evidence or clam up. Forget religion, higher concepts of spirituality would never make sense to a low class carnal minded conformist hedonist like you.
        Rectums have only one function(in addition of being the source of your “arguments”), and it’s not sexual in any way, not to mention hygienic.
        A rational human being should never allow himself to be sidelined as homophobic. There is no such thing. Neither must a rational person accept that a homosexual is oriented differently. It is not acquired by birth, or genetics.
        The bottom line is you’re a racist hate filled white maggot upset that normal thinking human beings don’t go accept the sick, filthy, perverse excesses of your culture. Seems to me you have much time and possibly a container KY on your hands.

  34. lol Dr M. Back out of day release I see. lol.
    Can I contribute to your internet fee – you obviously have an finance, access, usage or bandwidth problem – let me help you fellow brother Muslim. Alhamdulillah, Allah has provided me enough to share.
    May I point out that your lack of civility is very unbecoming of a Muslim. Do you think our great Prophet would approve of the way you speak to a fellow Muslim, let alone another human being?
    1. You have not answered my queries.
    2. You attempt to distract by name calling and abuse – put up or shut up Sir.
    3. It’s a great shame your intellect is not being used for good, instead it’s being used for abuse and name calling.
    It’s OK – I’ve been called far worse. I forgive you and may Allah forgive you.

    • Yawn, you’re like a lame cable rerun, Hyder. You simply repeat the same nonsense over and over again. Are you a homosexual? Is that why you so afraid of stating Islam’s position on this vile sin?

      • lol Dr M – I did not expect you to reply till next week: seems like you did not use up all your bandwidth.
        Anyway, you have not answered my questions – put up or shut up Sir!
        Your grammar leads a lot to be desired – you ought try using a spell check. lol.
        Still being unpleasant I see. It’s hard to be nice – you have to work on it. The best of Muslims are gentle, humble and pious – unlike you.
        In any case, if you don’t like what is written here, the web is a big place, and you can find some other place to spew your vile and hatred amongst like-mided uncivilised trolls.
        I await you next ingorant response Dr M – lol.

  35. Dr M we have not completely analagize the human DNA yet if would take than other 20 years to get than basic understanding of what in the DNA. Thisnot hollywood science where than scienist get total and complete understand of Human DNA in 10 mimutes. There are boys that where raise by homosexual father and they never became homosexual but hetesexual. You wonder how than homosexual can father childern, simple once awhile than homosexual decide to go straight than he married than straight woman get her pregeant after awhile he decide the straight life isnot for him she diroved the woman. Homosexual go way back in history since very few homosexual have childern how come there are large number of homosexual today and many are from straight families.

    Than Allah didnot command us to go around murdering homosexual or people who we think are homosexual you needed to understand what the koran say. Plus I than 60 year old man is haveing than muslim woman who look for mate to find me than nice muslim women who might be interest in marraige. I believe my ex-wife murder be baby daughter by me while she was divoring me when I was young.

    • @Brian,

      Stop talking rubbish(the grammar is atrocious), please. I’m beginning to think you’re JJ. There is no scientific basis to your arguments, it’s sheer nonsense.

  36. @Hyder,

    Is that an echo? Oh it’s our little low class cowardly brown sahib Hyder trying to waste more space as usual with his childish repetitive cut and paste tantrums. So many posts, so little substance. Last I checked this is Wajahat Ali’s site, not yours, gutter snipe. If you handle the heat or debate then don’t pick fights with your betters, ignoramus.
    The best of Muslims speak the truth, regardless of the price they have to pay. They don’t hide behind “adab” or any other distractor to dodge the real issues. Not lying secular fanatics, perverts and spineless munafiqs like you playing games online justifying what Allah(swt) has forbidden and condemned.
    Why are you so afraid of stating Islam’s stance on homosexuality? Hard to type with a container of KY in one hand?

    • Yawn – so boring Dr M. You’ve used those lines before; on me and others. You really need some new abuse tags. lol.
      Still not very civil of you – this is what you’ve just posted:
      1. little low class cowardly brown sahib;
      2. gutter snipe;
      3. lying secular fanatics, perverts and spineless munafiqs;
      You also insuinated that I am wanker. lol. You’ve used that line on others – you really are not very original.
      The evidence is for all to see – how uncivil you are, and your inability to argue coherently or in a sound way. It’s not really hard for you to read my earlier posts is it?
      In any case, you were asked to ‘Put Up or Shut Up’ – but looks like you just want to abuse and carry on like a headless chook. Which is evudent that you are of no substance.
      That’s OK – I forgive you, and hope that Allah does as well.
      With much Muslim brotherly love and affection,
      PS I look forward to your next silly little missive. lol.
      PSS Not very brave of you to hide behind a pseudonym – at least I am who I am, and do not cower like you. lol.

      • @Hyder,

        How amusing, you’re complaining about repetition when in fact you’ve pasted some old rubbish like a broken record. The gist of your whining since Ramadan has been that I’m not polite and don’t use my real name, hence my arguments are invalid. Such brilliant logic from our little brown sahib. I’m was really shaking in my boots at your ability to track my IP address. LOL!
        As I said earlier I will NOT be civil towards fasiqs and spineless cowards too afraid of clearly stating what Islam’s position on homosexuality. Why would I extend such a courtesy to those trying to twist and pervert the Deen for white political correctness, and/or some sheepish desire for acceptance? You can’t save face anymore Hyder, you’ve been very tight lipped and evasive in addressing the homosexual issue. Why? Because you’re afraid it would offend the people whose you truly worship, just like the rest of the house “mozlems.”
        The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead. It is said that opposites attract, so I sincerely hope you meet somebody who is attractive, honest, intelligent, and cultured.

    • No Brian, you lost the plot a long time back. You’re posting links on other(but related issues) because you have no way to legitimize homosexuality within any Islamic framework. It’s a distractor.
      The only losers here are the secular fanatics and the house “mozlems” unable to justify their misguidance.

      • Poor Dr.M
        I absolutely cannot understand why you simply accept without any consideration the position of Islam about homosexuality.Homosexuality should be a sin.
        What is a sin? Somewhat that is forbidden in a Medieval fake book?
        As you are an homosexual yourself you must know better.
        A human being who is born as an homosexual is not supposed to deny it but to accept it.
        Al religions are phantasies invented by manipulators such as priests, profets and imams for the weak people who are not able to accept the (harsh) truth of human life : there is no god or allah and there is no afterlife.
        The only thing for us is the life we have hic et nunc.Lets make the best of it and forget al that religious bullshit.
        Think for yourself Dr.M, be yourself!
        Do not accept the phantasies of others.

  37. Inoge the two link they either change then or I miswrote the number. In Portland Or in the 82th ave where they have over 100 strip club and other sexual bussien some pimp are entrapment teenager into being whores than the parent have no legal right in court to get they teenager away from these pimp. They have cases of 13 year old teenager being force to dance in strip club and walk the street picking up johns to sell they bodies to. It show america moral decay these where good christian teenager from good family.

  38. Dr M are you than member of the same cult as Tom Cruise where they donot like the medical doctoe who treat mental problem with medince.

    • No Brian, I am not a Scientologist or have advocate their approach to mental issues. I said psychiatry is the least scientific and most corrupt field in Medicine. It wasn’t always that way but that’s a conversation for another time and place.
      Tell me do you suffer from dyslexia? Never mind, don’t answer that, it’s better that way.

  39. I like you Dr M – your abuse of me is helping wipe clean my sins. Thank you.
    What took you so long to respond this time?
    Can’t wait to your next uncivil response next week.
    Have a nice week, and try not to kick the cat!

    • Wiping your sins, Hyder? LoL you’re an amusing fellow, more like I wiped the floor with you. Tell me, have you managed to summon courage over the last few months to clearly state Islam’s position of homosexuality, or do you need more time?

  40. @JJ.Rousseau

    Wrong as usual. God is the ultimate reality, I don’t expect an inferior materialist creature of your ilk to understand the timeless concepts of faith and spirituality. These are realities which transcend your sick secular European carnal desires. Homosexuals and their proponents like you always lose because you simply are devoid of logic and common sense. Homosexuality is road to nothingness and no amount unscientific, unnatural, retarded tantrums will change the fact normal thinking human beings will not accept such a destructive “life style.” I’ve gotten rather tired of refuting you so many times now.
    Your atheism means nothing to me, it’s the opium of European nihilism. You’re the product of failed society. Don’t waste my time repeating myths out of the white “cultural” gutter. Muslims will not compromise our Deen for your political expediency.

    • DrM,
      I enjoy your hate speech.
      People like you undoubtly will build a better world for our children and grandchildren.

      • @JJRousseau,

        Yawn, the flaming hypocrite projects once more. You mean your ears bleed when you read simple truths. The only hate speech I’ve encountered here is the one coming out of both ends of your mouth, including a couple of buffoons who can’t understand that it’s not a small white world anymore. Your arguments or rants fall on both religious and secular grounds.
        I’m not interested in you or your future generations(you’re doing a pretty good job destroying yourselves, and for that you have my gratitude), I am concerned about my own, and keeping their hearts and minds free of your filth, and attempts to force it our faith and community.
        Islamophobes, whether from right(Palinistas) or left(bum chums) are both turds in a sewer.

  41. This exchange, while not devoid of entertainment value, shows why the time is ripe to abandon all religious superstitions such as Christianity and Islam, based as they are on an incomplete, dated, and seriously flawed understanding of the world and the people who inhabit it.

  42. Simply because one converted to Islam does not mean Muslims should now rearrange our religion to accommodate your lifestyle. Therefore I disagree.

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