GOATMILK continues its original and exclusive month long series entitled “The Contemporary Muslim Woman” featuring diverse Muslim women writers from around the world discussing a gamut of topics in their own unique, honest and eclectic voices.
Breaking a Stalemate
ZEBA IQBAL
My sincere request to the Muslim American community, namely eligible men and their mothers, matrimonial sites and event organizers, and rishta aunties everywhere: ‘Please stop ignoring me, and many others like me. I am part of a growing population of single women over 35 in our community, and we are not going away.’
We’ve reached a stalemate on marriage (probably several years ago) and have been on opposite sides of the table for too long. Can we be allies, not enemies? No one’s right. No one’s wrong. Can we call a truce and move on?
Though not widely discussed beyond the living rooms of Muslim American families, we all know marriage is a high priority (to be clear ‘wajib’ not ‘fardh’). Being unmarried and over 35, I know searching for a suitable mate also includes a lot of soul searching (example: “Why is this happening Allah, what have I/we done wrong?’ accompanied by muffled sobs and tears, and of course chest beating).
Growing up on romance novels and romantic movies, we (women) are not averse to marriage. Before you say ‘tauba’ too many times many of the ‘romantic movies’ are Bollywood movies our parents ‘wished we would watch’ so that we would stay ‘connected with our culture’. Culture is a double-edged sword I guess.
I believe we all need help. We need to take this discussion out of our living rooms to Muslim social scientists, our prominent imams and our community leaders. We need to do research, ask for their expertise and assistance. You think I’m joking. I’m not. This situation is not something we can address effectively without deep Islamic knowledge and strong data.
I honestly do not believe I am ‘incapable’ of finding a ‘suitable match’, or that I am too old to have children, too picky, too ambitious, can’t cook or placing too much focus on my career. Yet this is what I have heard for the better part of 10 years.
Let’s move beyond these circular discussions. I truly appreciate any and all efforts, but I am not big on ‘cookie cutter’ solutions where the focus is on culture, not religion. Why are we re-enforcing failed cultural paradigms and not creating a religious paradigm for our community?
I have pep-talked my single friends out of some rough times (I’ve been there too), and know that ‘I’m younger today than I will be tomorrow’, I am ‘Allah’s creation and Allah’s creations are all beautiful’. More importantly, the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) married women that were older/younger, thinner/fatter, darker/lighter, taller/shorter, stronger/weaker, etc. Except for Bibi Khadija, none of his wives had children, and yet they were the ‘best of women’.
Marriage is a fortress, it is a protection for men and women, and is not only for procreation. Also, wealth and children are gifts from Allah, we cannot guarantee either of them. We forget these things when we get wrapped up so tightly in our social and cultural norms.
I am ‘unlucky in love’ at least partly because I am working against a system, a mindset, with little to no support outside of a tight network of family and friends. Meeting and speaking with qualified, eligible men in informal and varied settings without going bankrupt and losing all my pride is a tough, if not impossible, proposition. You shake your head, but I speak the truth.
Informal and Varied Settings
Ask any relatively normal and well-adjusted person who does not stick out like a sore thumb in any other aspect of life except their ‘unmarried’ state and you will know that matrimonial events and sites focus on age, height, income and location. Not always to be discriminatory, but more because they are the ‘easiest ways’ to pre-screen and categorize.
These settings are awkward and uncomfortable at best, especially for outliers (women over 35) and most men. Women over 35 are often asked to sit in corners of the room or are ‘screened out’ of internet searches. We often convince other women to keep us company, but convincing men (our friends or people ‘like us) is tough, if not impossible.
Informal professional networking events and sites in ‘halal’ settings are a better option, but they don’t target (or want to target) only marriage-minded singles. Their goal isn’t (and shouldn’t be) marriage.
Going Bankrupt
We were always taught to be prudent, but internet site subscriptions add up ($20-30 each per month on Shaadi, Shadi, Match, eHarmony, etc) as do matrimonial events ~$100 each excluding clothes, make-up, hair and travel.
After paying dearly for these, I have stopped both. With the former, it was the numerous photo-less two-line bios (example: ‘Were r u luv of my life? I am waitin my hole life for u. I bad with writting about myself. If u want to know me more please call or txt to me.’) and communicating with ‘lonelyinluv’s, ‘lookinforu’s, receiving email marriage proposels from ‘juscantwait’s and jpgs of roses from ‘luvofmylife’s. I decided, country song titles were not my thing. With the latter, no men, but I have made enough wonderful girlfriends to last me a lifetime.
Rishta aunties, well, they do pass on my cell phone number to people (without informing me). I recently got a call from a man who had been sent by one. I spoke to him, but after responding to my query ‘so you’re divorced, do you have children’ with ‘kind of, do you like men who have children or not?’ I politely got off the phone and did du’a not to receive such calls anymore. Some pre-screening please!
We spend freely because absent other options, the rationale is ‘OK these efforts are expensive, but —- true love: priceless!’. I am half-kidding, but in all seriousness, if there was more promise in any of these options, I would gladly keep paying, despite the economic crisis.
Pride
Need I say more? Suffice it to say, this search for the ever elusive ‘suitable match’ has been a humbling experience
I have said my peace, and really do want to crack this egg, if not for me, for others – now and in the future. We can change this situation, InshAllah, but not without honest discussion. Life is too short to waste in a stalemate.
GOATMILK: An intellectual playground 
Wow.
I found this to be a hard hitting and honest portrayal of what is the typical dismissive tone with which the community treats single women older than their mid-20s. It is almost unconscionable, the social isolation and misunderstanding that occurs. Ultimately, God knows best but we definitely need more honesty.
Zeba
I really enjoyed this article! Thank you for your honesty. I agree that we really need to stop relying on cultural paradigms and must begin to rethink marriage in our communities!
Thank you!
-Rabea
yp i agree with u miss rabea
A FANTASTIC article, Zeba!
I’m thinking of all the hilarious ads on Muslima.com now…
wow, jazaki Allahu khayran for sharing your frank — and much-needed — reflections on this issue! It’s far too widely ignored, and a reality that our communities need to overcome along with nonsensical cultural paradigms that don’t do anything productive for people!
Very nice and frank piece. I can certainly identify with it, having gone through the ordeal myself.
Indeed the muslim community needs to mature and shed its hypocrisy. Part of the problem with the situation muslims are in today’s world is their treatment of women. The muslim community cannot make progress unless its attitude towards women changes for the better.
The people who claim to following the footsteps of Prophet Mohammad conveniently ignore the fact that he was married to a woman much older than him. Age(or may I say fertitlity) and skin complexion are of utmost importance. Education, intelligence are rather insignificant. And if a woman has her own mind, forget it! So insecure are some men(and their family).
GOOD
BRAVO! Well-written piece that shall hopefully not be lost in the sea of the blogosphere, but bring forth awareness and action in the Muslim American community.
I have to say that this is a very one-sided and lame piece of venting. What about the other side of this issue – the single men? To be honest – why is it that a whole group of our generation (I’m 32 and married, alhamdulillah) DID manage to find someone and DID get married?
Overall, this is a fairly weak essay.
Dear brother scooby,
Yes this telling half the story, and the sister did excellent job in speaking so honestly most of the readers were touched. But your attack on the sister is unreasonable and I wish your refrained from hurting a dear sister who took the time to tell a story we needed very much to hear. Why instead not be positive and write about the story from a man’s perspective ?
Sisters like Ziba are treasures waiting to be explored. We live in a world that put too much emphasis on age that a rare flower like ziba is still to find a husband.
Sister ziba you are a gifted sincere person and I pray that this gift be utilized to correct the so many wrong things we have in our communities. Please do not stop writing and we sincerely pray that you meet your husband in the very near future. BTW, what do you think of issues other than the age ( race / location / hight / weight etc. ) we love to read what your beautiful mind can share about these as well.
May Allah bless you
May Allah Bless you the best sister. Ameen
Going through this myself, I can definitely identify with everything you’ve mentioned. With respect ‘Scooby’ no one’s denying that there are people out there that are happily married, of course this is always going to be the case, it would be unusual if no-one was married??! I think what the author was trying to highlight is that it’s much harder for females to find a partner as statistically there are less men per woman and what makes it especially hard is if you’re over 30 and part of a culture that thinks such an age is over the hill – namely the Muslim community!
I think many family’s are worried that once a woman is over 30 a woman’s eggs will have completely dried up! Well, let me tell you – mine are just fine thankyou very much (insha’allah)!
Culturally Muslim women are only allowed to marry Muslim men. We should reconsider that statement. Muslim women should be able to marry anybody and the families need to be supportive rather than beating their chests because their daughter is not talking to nice Pakistani boy but rather some ghora.
Yes! As much as I would like to marry a Paksitani muslim as thats what I am, my own people are very difficult to deal with. There are more non muslims who are open to 30+ women then Muslims and it makes me re-think and research the Quran myself on why we cant marry a non muslim (as long as you dont give up your faith that is.) Quran says not to marry your daughters to non beleivers til they believe. I still do agree with this for many reasons and Islam isnt whats made it difficult but our own people and society make it difficult for us. They dont want a women after 30 but if a non-muslim does, do I walk away from it? Still single? I know many will say yes and that we should just submit to Allah, but why exactly are we walking away from having a partner in life and kids if you can still practice your faith? The whole point is to pass on your faith to your kids if you can do that with an accepting non-muslim, then why not? Our own Muslims are not letting us practice faith but following social standards then The Quran. They are busy looking at a girls face, body, age, education and status rather then her deen. so why is it the Quran is quoted when you bring up a non muslim but not in all other things? Sadly, society tends to pick and chose what we want to follow out of the Quran to suit us. Non-muslim – “no! Islam prohibits that!” ok but then why not mention Islam on age? Khadija (RA) was a lot older then Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) yet no one ever refers to that when it comes to age and marriage. I feel as a society we are just brain washed.
Dear Sofi
Assalam-O-Alaikum
We yearn to be love and be loved, especially in these lonely times. Many a times we are struggling with our career and livelihood that we forget marriage or just laugh it off. In Islam children are to be married when they become mature.Muslim society as a whole has drifted far away from Islam.A Hadith says a time will come when “Zinnzh” will be easy but marriage difficult.
When you talk marrying non-muslim do you remember it should be NIKAH, a real Nikah- Meaning the man should recite and accept ISLAM. Yes there has been cases when the man denounce Islam after marrying a muslim girl.
You get life once to prove yourself for “Jannah”. Right !
Quran clearly says that do not marry a non-beliver man/woman even if he appears to be good going. Do whatever you like but do not try to find wrong excuse from Quran.
Yes this really serious sensitive issue and everybody must be sensitive enough not to hurt others. We should be ready to explore all options available in Islam including marrying marrying widow or second wife.
Islam encourageous second marriage in time of condition like war and such situation when families have lost husbands and sons due to so many conflicts.
Allay Allah provide sincere muslim marriage seekers a good life partener. Ameen.
great article Zeba…personally speaking and as well as someone who has been part of community development it has been a painful realization that there are better women than men, qualitatively. In my opinion this is the case with non-muslims too, although it is quiet stark amongst muslims. I admire your courage in writing this piece and bearing your heart. I hope Allah blesses you for this.
here are couple of interesting links –
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Why_is_there_a_shortage_of_men/rssarticleshow/2986901.cms
That article was from Slate http://www.slate.com/id/2188684/
Selam a lekum Zeba
May Allah (sbut) allow you to meet the right person inshalla.. 🙂 This is a very thought provoking article. I encourage you to visit the following website: http://www.noorallahproductions.com. There is an entire section of free videos in there where the shaykh talks about the many different aspects of marriage.
take care
hamid
asa Zeba
I can totally relate to you…and its definitely an issue in the western world. i want answers from my communit leaders who assert their authority on everyting else but have failed to notice we, the single women of their community, have a problem.
anyway i also read your article on alt muslimah today and loved it.
Zeba,
As Salamalaikum. Just like you have your own situation so do divorcees. Being open to men who are in “different” circumstances may be something to look in to. Aren’t you guilty of doing the same thing to the divorcee what others are doing to you? Just in general being open to the non traditional like going outside the community and recent reverts to Islam is one thing but what about all of the divorcees out there?
@ Tahir –
Salaams – I agree that divorce(e)s have their own struggles. And I agree that we all need to be more open. It was not explicitly stated in any of my pieces – but most single women over 30 (myself included) are more than willing to and do meet divorce(e)s with and without children.
Zeba
salam sister zeba
Well done sister :), your article have really initiated a heated discussion, and many can relate to your personal experience. Do not be discouraged with the few very negative comments. and do not stop writing with this level of honesty, sincerity, clarity and humbleness. That is what made your article touch so many hearts and minds. 🙂
May Allah bless you and bless the gift you demonstrated in the article as an exceptional writer to the hearts and minds, and give you a husband off your dreams who wold treat you like a queen.
Let’s be honest.
The problem is we live in a western country that does not follow the Islamic guidelines regarding marriage.
Western society: 1 husband – 1 wife.
Islamic solution: 1 husband – up to 4 wives.
As with all things of this world plural marriages have their own issues but certainly alleviate much of the ills of western struggles with morality and much of the muslima-over-35 issue.
As Sallaam Sister!
This is what comes to my heart after reading what you have written.
Keeping aside all the concerns we may or might have in this life, the list will never end. Your story is the agony of before marriage, do u really think ppl who are married are happy??? Rethink!!
Today we are suffering from what our parents inherited so called culture accumulated over hundreds of years from the Colonial Era. In short our success now lies in re embracing Islam, in going back to the basics, divorcing ourselves from our cultures.
Viit the site brother Hamid Mentioned http://www.noorallahproductions.com/www.noora1.com by Da’ee Ahmed Moait from US. He lives in New York. He has guided many youngsters like us. So check his videos once, you will get answers.
As Sallaam!
Zohra
zohrajab29@yahoo.co.in
Alhamdulilah, jazakallah for expressing your experience, and there are many more Muslim, unmarried women out there, who must be reassured that Allah has saved us from the troubles that may have befallen us and WILL grant marriage when it is BEST for us, and those unmarried singles who feel passionatley that they also want non-divorcee partners are entitled to want to do so, because they are firstly commanded in the quran to marry thos who are single before other pious Muslims are mentioned after.
It is so true that as you mention the ‘Islam’ value and influence should be there to a far greater scale in the marriage forum, such that those who lead communities should take a vested interest in guiding with this aspect of life and community asap.
She is stupid like so many other women. Women in their 20s are arrogant and think life revolves around them. The reason they are unmarried over 30 is that they waited it out in their 20s thereby creating fitnah for men who were looking to get married in their 20s. I mean let’s be serious here: waiting or searching for 10 years (20 to 30) and not finding anybody suitable (being picky), not making the first move so as to save their own pride and feelings and letting men take all the humiliation, and not being serious in their 20s is exactly what they are going to get: a single life in their 30s. I will take a divorced woman who married in her 20s and now in her 30s as it proves to some extent that she was not the cold hearted selfish – me me and me type of girl in her 20s. It is just that she was unlucky and her first marriage did not work out. That is how Khadijah was. she was divorced when prophet married her. Ten years is a long time given by Allah in this short life of a few decades to look for someone suitable and failure to do so or holding out during this period creates enormous problems for men of similar age to do fitnah. If women don’t care about their men in their 20s then come 30s we will not care about you. You will have no share in our wealth or gaurdianship.
What goes around comes around.
This phenomenon is going to go mainstream. So many women in their 20s are arrogant, irresponsible, and holding out marriage for men for a good ten years that come a few more years they will be entering their 30s unmarried. Then they will be desperate and will bring the example of Khadijah to emotionally blackmail guys into marrying them when it is similar guys they rejected in their 20s which have now somehow become suitable.
Khadijah was a nice woman who wasn’t cold hearted and did not hold out all during her 20s because she couldn’t find someone who she did not click with or did not find the spark or did not find chemistry. Khadijah was somebody who did not find the prophet later marrying more wives, one of which was a lot younger than him.
How many women who shout out the example of Khadijah will meet her in her good manners, compassion and sharing her husband with other women a lot younger than him?
I rest my case. Cherry picking good examples from Islam for your own good and not telling the whole story selfish, corrupt and shows a rotten personality.
Mohammed ( August 29, 2009 at 6:05 pm),
What a childish response. You should always wish the best for your Sister/Brother, it is part of our faith.
Even if what you claim is true, parents & society have a part to blame. And sins should not hold a person back, otherwise no one would move forward. If she made a mistake so what; she still has every right to seek marriage and her perceived errors should not hold her back.
Also slight correction. Mohammed (SAW) did not marry anyone beside Khadijah (RA). Only after her death did he marry again.
You are doing nothing but harm. You should correct your views. We should be forgiving, and don’t hold a personal grudge on all sisters. Don’t be a male equivalent of a feminist.
As to Zeba article.
Dating is generally considered haram unless supervised (according to some).
And dating and marriage outside Islam is without a doubt a “NO NO” for women. Islam is clear on such matters. Men are only allowed to marry from the people of the book. Both men & women are finding it difficult due to changing in desires and expectations, and also the advent of feminism, industrialisation. Our parents had it easier.
I think this is a wonderful article. I am 35 and haven’t married. I didn’t get married in my 20’s and still have hesitation now. However, it was never because I was arrogant. It was actually because my parents had a horrible marriage and it was difficult being a product of that type of environment. I didn’t want that kind of life for myself and nor any potential kids I might have had. So there are many reasons why a person doesn’t get married.
Also, it is so difficult to find decent Muslim partners in America. As Adam^^ pointed out, we are not supposed to date and be with non-Muslim partners. The guys our elders think we should be with, just turn out to be putting on a show to seem decent when in fact they are very much the opposite. Not being able to date them, makes it hard. Western society doesn’t understand this concept, they think you are some kind of freak for not having a boyfriend or dating someone. I am embarrassed to go on the dating sites and even on Facebook to advertise myself because the kind of guy I would want wouldn’t want his future wife to be on those sites even though I have tried this. Please forgive me, I don’t mean to insult anyone who uses those sites because that is norm now. It just wasn’t my thing and was very uncomfortable for me. I actually know many Muslim men and women past their thirties who are not married. There is one woman in her 70’s and still not married. We don’t know what is meant for us. Even though it gets lonely sometimes and you feel like an oddity to not be married and over 30, it still might be easier that being married to an abusive and disrespectful partner. Despite my hesitation and fear, I still hope one day all of us that do want to get married can find decent Muslim partners.
Assalamoalaikum
Brother Adam, you can’t say to someone tha he is being immature by speaking his mind and then not say the same to the one who wrote the article. That is double standards. Yes, the society is to blame as is everyone. As muslim men we have sisters and daughters who we should marry of like the prophetic way… ( like the prophet married his daughters read up please, and how Omar married his women read up please) So our women don’t have to search themselves. If they find someone themselves this fine but done in a halal way, which 9/10 times its not, in the west. Main Reasons being people are materialist, esp women, which is not mentioned, 42/43 inhabitants of hell fire are women and most of this ratio and percentage of women will come at the end of time following the dajjal, after money and status. This desire for money and status, to be independent and financially stable and then wanting the equal in the husband male is nothing short of blindness. Do we forget the hadith where the prophet said that the men of madina will tie their women by ropes but the women will break their ropes and go out to the dajjal. The Quran has hundred of ayers but only one which mentions women before men , it is good women are for good men, and bad women are for bad men…. This is in reference to marriage… Women are in the driving seat initially when it comes to marriage and they start the fitna off by delaying their marriage by being choosey and desiring, the dunya as the Quran and Hadith both prove. Now please correct yourself. Ws
Assalamu alaikum
I cannot help but agree with you.
Although I would use such harsh words as you have used and try not to hurt someone but trust me this is the case. I am a guy who is approaching late 20s. and it is so difficult to get married to someone just average as well. I am on a work visa in England and am a bit short 5 5′ to be exact. Trust me I have had so many rejections that I just cant be bothered any more. There are girls who just thought I was marrying to get their citizenship!! Others bluntly said they just want someone tall around 6 ft, ironically they themselves were under 5 5′! Then there are those who just chat with you some days and as soon as they see your picture, (I am alhamdulillah good looking but no Brad Pit) they are like we are not compatible! and these are our hijabi loving sisters who use inshaAllah and mashaAllah in their every sentence.
I dont blame these sisters either, They have been brought up in Westerns societies influenced heavily with MTV Music and pornography, no matter how hard their parents tried. They got exposed to these things outside their homes and have since been struggling with their Muslims identity in Western World.
During 20s they just think that this ordinary guy is not enough for them, they should wait for their prince who will come from Hollywood! They keep rejecting men not ever thinking about Islam or their feelings but being only self centred and when they reach 30s, they then suddenly realize that they will end up singles for the rest of their lives but now they realize that tables have turned and justice is served!
May Allah give hidayah to these women to actually accept the men who propose to them during their 20s because this is such an important part of deen to lower the gaze and guard chastity inshaAllah. Ameen! Parents should also play a driving role in this.
*Although I would *NOT* use such harsh words….
You are exactly what is wrong with our society.
That was for Mohammed
To Mohammad: Dude, you sound jilted and for good reason. Those girls aren’t being picky, you’re just turning them off with your judgmental attitude.
I am a professional woman still finishing up her degree and really did not even have time to think about marriage until I hit the 30 mark. Now it has become quite an issue. I think this is a good example to those who are younger to act a little sooner. But as others have pointed out, everything happens for a reason. There is trouble with marriage as well. For me, it is really to have a couple of kids, that would be nice.
Insallah the best to all.
Hi! I want to say thanks for an interesting site about a subject I have had an interest in for a long time now. I have been lurking and reading the posts avidly so just wanted to express my thanks for providing me with some very good reading material. I look forward to more, and taking a more active part in the discussions here.
As someone who once reached out to Zeba and numerous other 35+ single Muslim women, through one of the matrimonial sites a long time ago, I believe that her post is very one sided and self-serving. The author would like us to sympathize with her and has concocted a strong case for that. The reality, however, is quite different.
We see an exponential rise in almost 40 single Muslim women because of, not of lack of availability of suitable suitors, but their arrogance. These women wanted it all when they were in their 20s – money, looks, bragging rights. Even Brad Pitt would have gotten rejected by 50+% of them, if he didn’t have money or fame. Their girlfriends kept telling each not to “settle”, keep looking for the bigger better deal, make sure that the guy is a doctor/lawyer/ivy MBA, don’t marry anyone who doesn’t propose with a 15k engagement ring, etc. All the while, these women believed that they will forever stay young and beautiful and hence, feel entitled to money, looks, bragging rights. 10 years fast forward, we have many Zebas, some never got married, some did but got divorced.
As an average looking, highly educated, professional, non-drinking, non-smoking, non-gambling, guy, I was rejected by countless women because of lack of good looks, lack of exciting personality, lack of spark and because I chose to drive a sensible Honda versus a flashy BMW. It was a long, painful journey that I had to go through to find my wife who married me, not because of my money or lack of looks, but because she knew I would lover her and treat her with kindness.
I have moved on, but this post brought back not-so-fond memories from my past, so I thought I’d set the record straight. And please forgive me if I don’t shed any tears at this sob story.
This is just the case of chicken coming home to roost.
give me a break! are you serious? really we’re that shallow and judgemental that you think we all held out so as not to “settle?” maybe there aren’t enough people in a community to meet. is it so wrong to be focused on a career? i’m a doctor, and you know what, helping others has been my main goal. NEVER and i mean NEVER have i ever judged a potential suitor for not being “rich” enough or “tall” enough or “fair” enough etc etc etc. but can i tell you how many of them judged me on being too fat or too dark or too educated or whatever (and trust me i’m just like any other normal looking Muslim girl, a fairly nice looking and kind hearted individual). really so you’re basically saying that all i did was be shallow LIKE YOU MEN and YOUR MOTHERS to hold out? really? REALLY? wow, that is childish and immature and really just downright rude. didn’t anyone give you any manners on how to treat women. when guys like you and Scooby and Mohammed up there decide to generalize us and lump us together in to stereotypical format it’s obvious that your eyes and hearts and minds are definitely closed. read some Qur’an and learn how not to judge other people and to respect women, maybe then you’ll get a clue. actually no wait a minute, people who are vapid and shallow and stereotypically senseless like you guys won’t get a clue. and you know what, that’s the kind of guy i wouldn’t want to marry. not the one who’s not rich enough or tall enough or smart enough or blah blah blah, but the one who is just downright unintelligent and has such a low opinion of others that they can debase someone for no reason at all. there might be free speech, but you know what, sometimes you guys need to be nonjudgemental and keep your mouths shut. and for the record, i don’t need to find a doctor to marry because i already am one. so thanks for making me out to be a shallow human being. thanks for making me out to be concerned with the material, especially when Islam emphasizes NOT being concerned with the material, thanks for assuming i’m as vapid when i dedicate my time and caring to doing something positive, instead of sitting around and complaining that every potential suitor is this and this and that and that. sorry but i haven’t got the time, the heart, or the energy to judge another human being like that. and you know what, y’all could probably learn how to shed a tear or two. thanks for writing honest words Zeba. too bad the Muslim men in our community don’t have the wherewithal to understand, read, or respect an article like this. i pity all your wives. learn the word respect, buddy. that’s what separates me from you. and that’s what separates the real men from the boys.
Just a Girl,
Your quotes …
” …really so you’re basically saying that all i did was be shallow LIKE YOU MEN and YOUR MOTHERS to hold out? really? REALLY? wow, that is childish and immature and really just downright rude. didn’t anyone give you any manners on how to treat women… ”
” …too bad the Muslim men in our community don’t have the wherewithal to understand, read, or respect an article like this. i pity all your wives. learn the word respect, buddy. that’s what separates me from you. and that’s what separates the real men from the boys…”
Which planet are you on? Extremely insulting, degrading and inhuman post. BBMan, explained what he experienced and allmost all guys share his experience. Why are you insulting, finger pointing and name calling? You need to grow up. Post like this just go to show that women who are ugly from the outside are also extremely ugly, disrespectful and packed with men hate from the inside. That’s what separates men haters from the men lovers. I am not surprised you are single and with an attitude of men hate, you will continue to remain single.
You go, just a girl! We single gals should NEVER let anyone get us down!
i dont blame you for losing it .. the brother was a bit harsh and provocative.
but i am sure you can do better than that. May Allah bless you and grant you a man who will treat you like a queen.
brothers, be gentle with our sisters and do not generalize.
remember the directions of the prophet
Finding the right marriage partner has become quite a task especially for us that are living in the US. We have to balance our own needs with those with our parents, which almost always tend to be different. With that being said, we need to also stay within Islamic boundaries and balance all these other cross cultural things that are actually trivial at the end of the day. I have been looking for “mrs. right” for 8 years and I am 38 now, and no luck. I have tried meeting people through my parents, family, friends, online matrimonials, and no luck. Most of the matrimonial websites are just a waste of money. I have recently joined http://www.misterNmisses.com because it’s 100% free and based here in the USA so we’ll see how that goes. But honestly, I dont know what to do anymore.
May Allah help all single sisters caught up in this mire to find good husbands Amin. I am guilty of demanding my rights and stipulations from a suitor who approached me when I was 24. Its too late for regrets, rather I see my experience as a learning curve. I was young, immature and I guess arrogant, only thinking of my educaton and career. But this was also spurred on by my mother’s violent marriage to my father and subsequent divorce. This left a devestating affect on me and totally skewed my views about men and marriage. I left researching the true concept of marriage in Islam much to late and as a result, I have become one of thousands of women who have to endure the stigma of being 30 and single. I pray to Allah that I have not been cast outside the marriage circle because I took men and marriage for granted. I urge all sisters in their 20’s to marry first and postpone their career until settled with their half in this dunya. Being 30 is no fun. It simply means you’re lonely most of the time, you have no one to share your life and efforts with and you can only wish that certain brothers who you know of or see could see beyond your age. Im young at heart but no chance to prove it. I hang between real fear and real hope in Allah that my predicament will be relieved. Sisters please pray for me and yourselves. I have been truly humbled by my experience and would not wish my pain upon another younger sister.
Hope in Allah, Ameen
Dear All, i would like to add that all women are not arrogant but circumstances are such that proposals don’t come…it is either that they have limited friend circle in a different country wer they r settled, culture wer boys r allowed to choose life partner but a girl cannot.
i would say maybe Allah has better plans. Right time would come InshAllah.
I have two sisters who are nearly, ahem, 40. They were held up in a queue of older siblings who were also not married. The mistake was not theirs but fearful parents who thought that getting the younger ones married would only make it harder for the older unmarried ones..so marriage in our house had to be done in age order..sad and wrong.
My sisters are both beautiful, still look 20 something, educated, british, have good muslim characters, never had past relationships and yet, through no fault of their own, they never got a look in when suiters would have been available.
I keep telling them, ‘this was decreed for you’. but the reality is, the truth hurts and I feel for them. My sisters have tried to find someone but unfortunately there will always be a girl ten years younger with all the same qualities as above. So my sisters have, through no fault of their own, been placed on the top shelf. Any brothers out there who are interested to give my beautiful sisters a chance, feel free to cantact me on paulsmith17@hotmaildotcodotuk
The replies left by some of my fellow brothers are indeed sad. This sister just put her ego aside and made a public appeal to the society at large, asking that things change for the better. And it’s sad to see some brothers kicking her while she’s down. It’s not a muslim’s adab to taunt and to feel relief/pleasure in the misfortune of another.
True, women can be picky in their 20s, and true, that some of these single sisters might have waited too long for the right guy to come along, but right at this moment, she isn’t asking some Prince Charming to come off his white horse and take her away. All she’s asking for is a decent man.
Sister Zeba, I realize Allah (swt) has put you in a difficult situation, and it must be hard to hold on to hope. Please keep your iman strong and keep praying to Allah (swt), and inshAllah soon, your situation will get better.
Picky is not the word. Apprehensive is the word.
After growing up and watching my mother being mistreated by my father, with myself being mistreated by my brothers and to round it off; witnessing the horrific mental and physical torture of my brothers wives (by my brothers, father and mother) is enough to put me off marriage for life.
Who wants to find themselves in this same situation- believing all muslim men are like your father and brothers?? Do we women actually have any way of knowing or getting a chance to find out if there are other muslim men out there that arent like this? Your family will say they’re nice but thats what they said about my brothers to my sister in laws and look what happened to them.
So how am I supposed to believe and want to be married to a muslim man? I spent my 20s avoiding all talk of marriage – because I was running scared of ending up with someone like my father/brother!
Now in my 30s I am losing a little of this reluctance after seeing friends marry decent muslim men. So it wanst because ‘they didnt have money’ look good’ etc. It was because I would just like to be able to ‘live’ through my marriage and have kids who wont grow up to believe that men can go out and ‘be men’ whilst women cannot. Modesty applies to both men and women, and yet men seem to ignore applying this to themselves. This is wrong and not written in thre Qu’ran.
I am looking solely for a muslim man my age who will love an respect me for me, our children and himself.
is that too much to ask for?
Thank you for writing this. It is comforting to know that there are so many of us.
Been there done that ..speaking as a 37 year old who has been looking for a loooong time…
A few issues I have identified is the small pool that we have to chose from – ie muslim (in a non muslim country), some of these men have married ‘back home’ (good riddance I say….) or out of religion (and again). We like every other culture have our rude boys and those still attached to the strings…those that want to marry a ‘professional’ (ie its not enough that they marry a woman who will have and raise their children, cook & cleaner but must also pay for the mortgage)…but the biggest is that they want someone who they feel they can handle…ie has inferior intelligence and will not challange their egos…hence the trips back home…but sometimes even they dont work…much to the annoyance of mother in law…and of course there are those that want to date before any committment is laid down, very Islamic indeed….and the very Islamic ones, may be 38 years old but will still want a younger wife, infact the younger the better…
Certain cultures, which unfortunately identify themselves with being muslim are actually still quite misogynist that is one issue, the other is whereas in the heyday women compromised they dont want to do that anymore…we are independant and we can make that choice – and personally I’d rather be on my own then be with a idiot who thinks he can call me 11am at night (for the first conversation) and for me not to be offended…or the idiot who thinks I will chase him and wont call at all….
And God forbid if a woman is a divorcee or and has a child….good luck honey, because if you aint a virgin your not counted…unless of course he is equally a divorcee….and even then your lucky…
It saddens me to say this but if muslim men acted like muslim men and not egotistical opportunist beings who wanted the ‘best deal’ rather than a partner – there wouldnt be a problem…but theyve not been raised that way….rolling up their trousers and growing a long beard doesnt make a man practicing (even though I hate the usage of that term) the Prophet (PBUH) married older, younger, widowed and divorced…but how many men do we know whose mothers will look at a widow or divorcee for their unmarried son (regardless of how many women hes dated).
We are between a rock and a hard place…we are restricted with our choices because we want to follow our faith and marry muslims..yet the men fail to act like muslim men….
Every generation has its tests may be this is ours……Im just glad Im not tested with food and water and basic human rights MashAllah…I consider myself privileged when looking at the world around me …and at some married women…
Salams,
I’m probably coming at this from a different perspective than most, as the convert son of a Muslim father and a Christian mother, who have been married for nearly thirty years and are still very much in love, despite all the strife that Life has thrown at them. I can’t claim to be able to offer a prescription for this dilmena (as I’m not some perfect angel or the Ideal Muslim Man, at that) which has swept across the community, but I can make some observations. For one thing, all this finger-pointing (which shows a lack of self-accoutabilty and hence the lack of maturity amongst the youth of this community) has does nothing to further any attempts at a solution to this problem…it’s only exacerbated it. Secondly, I feel that the sources of this problem run far deeper than Muslimahs have too high of standards or Muslim guys being slackers, loser, or abusive douchebags. Those are merely symptoms of the disease. While we can try and treat these symptoms, like physicians, we must recognize that there is still another agent present, causing the malady. I, for one, have observed a lack of the kind of emotional maturity, empathy, street smarts, drive, and independence in both Muslims and Muslimahs, that honestly, in my opinion, is necessary for one to engage successfully in the search for a spouse. Ultimately, I’m not one to blame the individuals themselves, as they are merely products of their environment, much as I am of mine. This has far more to do with one’s upbringing and the cultural baggage that many of our parents bring to the table, since most of us rely on them to find us a mate. I, as a convert, have had the kinds of life experiences that a lot other Muslims probably never had, including living on my own and working to pay for school (among other things). This may be more of an immigrant Muslim problem, however a lack of these kinds of experiences can lead one to take certain things for granted and to lack the kind of maturity and empathy that would allow one to appreciate less tangible (but certainly very important) qualities in another person, in my opinion. This is something I’ve found lacking amongst this community and that I feel only makes things worse between the genders. Other than that, I’ll have to ponder some more…maybe I can come up with some more things to discuss (which will hopefully contribute to any and all attempts to solve this dilemna).
Wa Salam,
Tempest Desh
P.S.: Any Muslimah who wants to bash me or any decent Muslim guy who takes issue with the whole ‘There ain’t no good Muslim men out there’ stance, should seriously consider taking a ‘How to Spot a Douchebag 101’ course, so to speak. Maybe the elders (who want to run this process of searching for a husband/wife) might care to weigh in on this?
Salaams to all,
It has been interesting to read the article and the comments. In my view the problem is far deeper than the opinions that have been shared. I also believe that they are very superficial in addressing the issues. Serious problems needs serious and drastic solutions.
I am a muslim married man with kids. I am not sure if this site would allow to discuss polygamy but I am going to make an attempt for good reasons. Not that I practice polygamy. It is best left as individual choice but need to be studied and demands n intellectual discussion for its benefits.
Look. Things happen in life with everybody for different reasons and nobody is in a position to fix them for others or judge others for their situations. Everything is perfect and clear in hindsight. But the fact of the matter is how do we face those problems and move forward.
I have lived (as in spending years) in different societies. From Asia to middle east to US for good number of years and have observed societies closely. I keep interest in Sociology from Islamic point of view. Studied a bit of Ibn Khaldun (not that it gives me authority on anything). Have IT major and worked in IT industry in US. Studied Koran and a bit (not boasting about myself-just trying to show where I am coming from) about Islamic Societies/History.
The question to be asked is Why did Prophet SAW marry multiple wives (practiced polygamy). We will find deep and very strategic answers to this question if we make any attempt to study it seriously from a sociological, psychological, emotional physical and demographic point of view.
The kind of situation that our 30+ sisters are finding themselves in are pretty much the situations that the ladies in those times also faced. Lot of men went to wars and not enough men to marry all the women. Just as today men/women ratios are skewed more towards women. This imbalance was there in the past and will remain in the present and future.
The question is whether our religion provides us with any solution to this problem. It is very painful to see our sisters in such a situation due to whatever reasons of the past. But one reason did play a major role in their decision making and misplaced priorities. That is Feminism. This is a menace that is eating up muslim societies and creating unhealthy families and individuals. There is no denying of the fact that women’s rights must be respected and they have every right to fight for them. But they got carried away and mixed it with women’s emancipation and liberty. Western marketers did play around with their lives and ‘liberated’ them to allow them to buy more cosmetic products. Without teaching them about the other side of the story that there is more to life than just fighting and demanding things all the time. Present day example is to remove the veil from women’s faces in France and market them all sorts of cosmetic products. (I am not for or against head to toe veil. I respect their choice) But one question I would like to ask our 30+ sisters at this stage of their life. No I am not trying to exploit their situation and do not get me wrong either. I am not proposing polygamy either. As everybody has free will and I am totally for exercising one’s free will.
The question is, would the sisters accept polygamy more than brothers? Now please do not label me anything. I am just having an intellectual discussion for the merits and demerits of polygamy in today’s challenging world we live in.
I know the answer would be a resounding NO. I think here lies the crux of the matter.
Being aware of the fact that there are skewed men/women ratios. Being aware that there are not so many intellectual or ‘qualified’ (emotionally, intellectually, physically etc etc…) men around. But there are lot of decent men around who are successful in their lives and who may be qualified to have second wives.
This question is two fold. It is posed to married sisters more than the unmarried sisters. Are the married sisters willing to share their husbands and when married, are the 30 + sisters willing to share their husbands with other sisters? And Men need to be careful with this idea. If they are not able handle and do justice, they might end up ruining at least three lives.
If one analyses these questions, I think we can make some progress.. Today’s sisters, both married and unmarried, are not realizing the strategic implications of this matter and nor are the brothers. None of us are thinking from a long term point of view or from daily life point of view.
Here are the implications.
How many times have we come across married couples who are not happy with each other for whatever reasons but they still hang around due to societal pressures. Which I would say is a blessing. I denounce divorce strongly. This is the most hated thing in front of Allah SWT. And there is good amount of wisdom behind it for those who reflect on the consequences on the kids, the couple and the society in general. At the same time how many times we heard of stories of these kind of men/women looking for/having extra marital affairs. We may try to deny it and may be a taboo topic but the reality speaks volumes. Both the partners want an out but still for whatever reason are stuck together. What about them engaging in prostitution without each other’s knowledge obviously, just to get out of the boredom of life, which is inevitable when two people don’t like each other. Today’s modern societies offer lot of exits for all the options. This is a very serious issue considering how much we are exposed today to sleazy marketing from every angle. I do not deny the fact the there should be self control. But the fact is also that these things are happening to a great extent in the Muslim societies.
Now coming to 30+ sisters. Sisters, mashallah you are talented, career oriented, understanding, intellectual and still productive(No. eggs don’t dry up after 30!!). Now how come you do not understand and work with the fact that you are getting older. You would need company in old age. And as human beings we have security, physiological and emotional needs. And above all we have a religious duty to have a family to avoid all those problems that are discussed about loneliness, falling for shaitan’s whisperings and other needs. No matter how much we deny, you are going to face these realities. Are we denying these facts. When you are single, you know about the whisperings I am talking about. Forget about the culture. Culture is not and will not help you. You are the culture. What solution you come up with becomes culture. Parents lived their culture and they performed as per their culture. Now it is time for you to define your culture within Islamic boundaries and not old cultural boundaries.
So would it be possible for you to compromise a little bit, eat up your pride. If not for anything or anybody’s sake but for Allah SWT sake you accept a proposal from a married man or vice versa who will take care of you and whom you will support in return. Can you imagine the harmony that we can bring in the society due to this. Married sisters, this is a very important question for you. You have to answer this question very courageously and honestly. What would you have done if you were in the other sister’s place. Empathy is the need of the hour I think. Here is a clue. You can surprise and make your husband very happy and proud by demonstrating your open/broad mindedness. There is the need for security for you. But communication will sort it out. I agree it is double edged sword. But then there is the educated and intellectual 30 + sister who can help put things in balance with your support. AS long as both the sisters don’t cheat each other and create problems for the man, I think the man will not have any issues. Right brothers?
The long term implication of not adopting this solution is that the demographic shift that we are going to witness in about 20-30 years due to low regeneration among Muslims is going to quite worrying. This is due to the fact that the ratio of divorced and single women is increasing by the day all over the world among Muslims. It will take detailed study to actually come out with numbers. But general observations and readings are not showing any positive signs. Unfortunately more Muslim women can be found in non-muslim families later on just because they could not find more ‘qualified’ men. If you are more qualified than a man, then the man should be strong to accept that and consider that his strength that he can attract a more qualified lady to be his wife. Do we have any idea as to why India’s population is growing at such a high rate? 30-40 years back Muslims were the target of the propaganda that we are polygamous and womanizing. Hence Muslim men have taken this argument to heart and stopped polygamy to a great extent (rarely heard now a days). But guess who is practicing polygamy unofficially? Hindus. Their wives come out of the woods to claim properties once the Hindu men die. They even marry without the knowledge of their wives. There are plenty of examples of these cases. I agree they are not in majority (God save us if these cases were in majority!!)
The short term implications are that Muslim women are marrying non-muslim men (as in Gujarat and other states of India) because they are more qualified than Muslim men. But nobody addresses the fact that Muslim men are being systematically denied higher education by the government but whereas muslim women are being encouraged to pursue and are being admitted to the institutions of higher education. Who do we think they are going to interact with intellectually and attracted towards in the absence of Muslim men at these institutions. Naturally non-muslim men. And why do we see so much propaganda about the ‘cerning situation’ of Muslim women societies in the western media and not the econimic situation of Muslim Men? Now do we see any correlation between lack of intellectual Muslim men and higher number of qualified muslim women. Do we also see the fact that it is an institutional policy.
In Malaysia, there is similar problem. More women are getting higher education than men. In US same problem. Women are even more career oriented. So the question is where are we heading with this problem.
Now there is no denying the fact that Muslim men need to work harder and become more responsible. But when the state policies come in the way, they also become more helpless. Muslim men also need to eat up their ego and accept this fact of imbalance in education and catch up with them or accept and respect them for who they are. It is easier said than done for a man to overlook their ego. I request sisters to give special attention to this quality of man since that is how Allah has made him. No matter how much feminists talk about this, they cannot change these natural properties of men. Sisters are more understanding and humble and I am pretty sure they can accommodate this aspect of man. If they do, they will be rewarded the most as their husbands will be the first ones to pray for their wives’ forgiveness to Allah SWT.
Here I see opportunity for both the sexes to work together for a higher cause which is to promote Islam through happy and cordial families.
With regard to this point, is it worse for women to stay single for their whole life or support a man with a family and gain happiness. The benefits I see are: security (social, physical, financial, etc) comfort of a home. The ways this can happen is if a 30 + sister gets married to an already married w/ family man. There need not be any antagonism between the two ladies of the man, provided they understand the bigger picture. This will help divert man’s attention from one to the other. He/She will not have to look outside the family for an affair. As per the nature of the man (and woman), both will get breaks at appropriate times from monotonous lives and will act as a good distraction tools for everybody. If sisters love each other and help the man in his affairs, do you think the man will not appreciate and love it. He will shower more love than you would imagine. The men will carry on the affairs of the outside world while women support them inside the house with their lovely skills. Men will also learn from women what they are lacking in.
As far as the western societies are concerned(or for that matter, even today’s eastern societies), I would not like to go into the details of the filth they are spreading in the other parts of the world since they are scared of the laws in their own countries if they are caught red handed. Just check out the places in Thailand, Phillipines, carribean Islands. There are various types of tourisms propping up for single ladies and men. I am sure and hope we are safe from this evil. And precisely to avoid this evil and to take care of our needs, the above discussed concept is prescribed to us.
We fall into the propaganda of the west about polygamy being equivalent to womanizing. But that is not true at all when carried out with responsibility I believe. We need to focus on the wisdom of the prescription by Allah SWT. There lies our answer to the problem. But not believe in the western jingoism. It is just that. Propaganda. By definition it is falsehood propagated to mislead people to achieve their goals, to deceive people. So have we become so un-intelligent to not decipher the truth from the falsehood. Maybe that is where we need to start by re-affirming our faith in Allah SWT and HIS book and understand the wisdom in HIS commandments for us and only for us.
Why have we become our own enemies and are readily insulting our own intellect. If anything, HIS message is to enhance our intellect by challenging us to go beyond the superficiality of this material life and find real solutions to real problems through reflection and understanding the wisdom in his messages. Do we not want to rise up to HIS challenge. There is a reason why we humans are called best of HIS creations. It is because we can adapt to any situation, use our rational mind and decipher the truth from falsehood.
The problem seems to be the intellectual deficit in the Muslim men and women for the last century. We have lost our way when we started to stop looking for wisdom and paying more attention to the sound bytes of the western media and so called scholars. We have failed to identify real scholars.
We have also lost our way when we started breaking our nuclear families. There used to be a concept of joint families and the community raising the kids together. This concept helped families from breaking apart as their used to be emotional and moral support outside the immediate family to help the couple stay together and resolve their issues with subtlety. Which is contrasted in the west today by the so called family counselors whose own families are in a mess. How can a family counselor understand a couple’s issues in an hour or few hours of counseling when they could not figure out living together. How can FC know them so well in few hours as to know what the idiosyncrasies of their relationship are without spending few months with them in close contact. This is where the joint families used to play a role in preventing the divorces. They didn’t used to hand out judgement for the couple to get separated. Most of the time FCs are creating more problems for the couple than solving them. Muslim Divorce rate among the newly married has grown astonishingly.
As per some estimates the divorce rate among the muslims in US is close to 50%. The questions is what is going on. Where are the things going wrong.
The problems could be attributed to the following factors in the West at least , impacting the Muslim families
1. Changing social environment
2. Parental lack of understanding of their children’s environment
3. Major disconnect of the parents and the children’s understanding of each other’s backgrounds due to very different forms of social exposure and education
4. Refusal of parents to let the children be who they are and imposition of their will without understanding their psychology
5. Lack of understanding of psychological patterns evolved due to the brought up and education in the west.
6. Major emphasis on the culture.
7. Lack of education in Islamic concept of marriage, the wisdom behind it and long term implications of marriage and divorce.
8. Lack of education in the roles and responsibilities of each spouse towards the other beyond the physical attractions and needs.
9. Lack of education in how to nurture relationships and develop care for each other beyond the me and mine attitudes.
10. Women not understanding to the full extent the men’s psychology and vice versa.
11. Lack of women’s attitude towards men’s role as bread winners and the impact on their ego for having been put into a non-earning position due to job losses
12. women competing with men in the house for leadership of the family leading to disrespect of the men and hurting of their ego.
13. Women not playing the natural role of caretakers of husband and kids when they get distracted and over-emphasise on their careers.
14. Lack of fair and open communication among the family members
When we consider the above list and many more reasons we can realize that the times have changed and we have to adjust accordingly. Muslim men and Women are in it together and we have to work together to make this beautiful institution of marriage work. We have to understand the current issues affecting the community for the greater good of the community and make things work rather than break them. It takes a whole village to raise a child but one to break one. Good things come in life with hard work. When we get married we work hard for that. When we are on the verge of breaking, it does not take much effort. That is where the real hard work starts to keep it together. Don’t take the easy path out. Instead of breaking consider the above discussed alternative and Allah SWT works in mysterious ways. Inshallah things might just start working out for you. Or any other way that works for you besides breaking up.
One of the Russian Generals during the first Afghan War said that in order to destroy any society, attack the women first. By that he meant either culturally, emotionally, psychologically and physically if need be. If we understand this statement we would also understand the significant role that a woman has in any society. The west is trying hard to remove the veil of the Muslim Woman and put it on the Quran. But please do not fail your own intellect and understand the logic behind it and realize that they want you to be intellectually in deficit so that you can continue identifying yourself with their material products. Do not become a tool of their commercialism. You are much smarter then them.
Another anecdotal example of the significant role Muslim women played in Iraq. When the mongols invaded Baghdad and destroyed everything that came in their way and raised a mountain out of human skuls, they also settled down in Baghdad and married local women. Even though they were non muslims, their later generation became muslim and ruled Baghdad as Muslim rulers again. How could this have happened? It was the Muslim women they married and settled with that raised the next generation of strong Muslims kids who later became the rulers of the country. This could happen only because the Muslims Girls and women were very well educated and grounded in the Islamic learning.
Here is a lesson for Muslim men as well. Do not mis-treat our sisters for it is they who hold the key to the future of Islam and becomes our responsibility to protect them from every sort of harm coming their way without getting emotional about it.
This is just an opinion but not a promotion of any type of lifestyle. To each their own.
This is what happens when polygamy is all but banned. You gave an example of the Prophet marrying all those different type of women but didn’t observe that he was married to more than one.
Yes, I think polygamy is one of the answers….quality is better than quantity however,
1) there is stigma attached to it…
2) men may not necessarily able to afford 2 households (one is a struggle for most couples) however, you do have
financially indepandant women that may voluntarily want to contribute (as many wives in the UK do anyway)
3) married women don’t have the emotional capacity or community commitment ie ability to sacrifice a little to
allow another to gain alot….
In reference to my earlier post…and in response to:
‘I, for one, have observed a lack of the kind of emotional maturity, empathy, street smarts, drive, and independence in both Muslims and Muslimahs…I, as a convert, have had the kinds of life experiences that a lot other Muslims probably never had, including living on my own and working to pay for school (among other things)’. Tempesh Desh
And how could I forget the ‘superior’ convert…?
Women over 35 are common on Muslim Matrimonials so much so are the men over 35. The problem lies with the men wanting to settle with not women their age but 10-15 years younger.
I know we have an expensive price tag of free! 100% Free!
I’m a 50 year old Pakistani and lived most of my life in the UK having had 1 arranged marraige failed and a second relationship wih no life left in it and suffered a stroke spells the end of life for mr so being sad bored and unhappy I went to the Internet for hope and help searching through google I came across an article by zeba Iqbal that made me smile men are not the only ones to suffer being 50 despite my illness I feel I have so much romance love and affection to offer, at my age I’m not looking for someone slim and petite just someone who has better looking personality then her looks as zeba says I have registered on those matrimonial sites without a picture simply from the point of my friends seeing me and branding me a Loser, I’m not a bad looking guy I have a good sense of humor but how do you draw a picture of yourself with words? I guess writing this and sharing it with the world has has made me feel good.
53 comments later, all I can say in a tiny mice like voice thus; WOW @ hitting it spot on, sister!
May Allah swt give us abundant peace and contentment in this life, and an aspired for akhirah – Ameen!
Zeba,
This is a problem for Muslim women all over the world. Thank you for elucidating our dilemma so eloquently and beautifully.
Best wishes.
My family is muslim from Pakistan and my sister ended up marrying a non muslim American white guy.
We are religious, fast, pray, don’t drink alcohol, give zakat and have gone for Hajj. My sister met a nice guy while she was in Dental school and her husband is one of the nicest people I have ever met in my life. He is open minded, respectful, tolerant and very loving to my sister and my entire family.
He comes from from a Catholic family (German/Irish mix) and went to Catholic school his whole life. He went to a private Catholic high schools, Notre Dame and Georgetown. His family is very Catholic by tradition, but is very open minded and respectful.
My sister was getting older, already hit 40 when she got married, and she told us about a non muslim guy she was interested in and we ended up getting to know him and his family.
He is not a “muslim” because he hates Islam or doesn’t like muslims, but would like to raise his kids with the awareness of both Islam and his Catholic upbringing. He is very open minded and progressive and even gives zakat at our mosque and even fasted with me during Ramadan. I guess you could say he is a hybrid “muslim and catholic” in one.
My point in writing all of this is that muslims have to be more open minded and progressive in their views. If you live in the USA, Canada, etc. You have to understand that not everyone is a muslim, not everyone thinks like us, and we have learn how to integrate and understand that the world is based on pluralism.
I am not saying that we should all marry non muslims or do things that are against Islam, but if all of you single muslim women are older and not married, you have to try to be more open minded. Look for guys who are outside of your ethnicity.
Don’t be stupid like these people who say “only hyderbadis” or “only panjabis” this is all bullshit. Are you ever going to move back to Hyderabad? or Karachi? or Gujurat? It’s so stupid and retarded people.
Even my family gets people talking crap about us for my sister marrying a white guy. But who cares? What should she do? Be turned down from stupid rishta aunties and online matrimonial websites because she is olive skinned and not “gori gori” or that she is too old being over 30? My fellow muslims, we must break out of our 7th century world view and be more realistic, especially living in the globalized modern world.
We should never lose our values, but be open to some change.
The reality is that there are more single muslim women than males, and you should look for a guy who is loving and kind. My other cousin married a Lebanese muslim who is shia, we are sunni..but who cares? There is only one Quran and Allah(SWT) knows best.
Even if you find a guy who is at least really tolerant and open minded of Islam, think about even finding a non muslim.
If you are a single muslim woman and you are getting older in your 30’s you have to be more practical in your search of a husband.
I know I will get a lot of hateful responses and people calling me a kaffir or a dhimmi or a “Bad muslim” but all you haters are freaking retards. Do you muslim women really want to wake up one day at the age of 40 and visit your OBGYN only to have her say “I am sorry but you are too old now and you are unable to have children”
I am just telling you the truth without sugar coating anything.
You have to be more open minded and understand the realities of being over 30 and trying to get married.
This is just my insight and I am not suggesting anything to anyone, you should all do what you feel is best for you. Just remember to be practical and realistic in your search of a spouse.
If you see my earlier post you’ll see that Im in a similar boat to what your sister was…but regardless of how ‘practical’ and ‘open to change’ an individual may be we cant change Allahs law – which is for a muslim woman to marry a muslim man.
I can understand how you’re sister came to that decision, I really can… and I can also understand the turmoil she must have gone through to justify her decision to herself, however in your attempts to justify zinna all youre doing is sugar coating your sisters weakness.
There is a problem and many will pay…but losing the faith isn’t the answer…
I know you’re expecting a lot of hateful responses but I am going to call you out for what you really are – A thoroughly sensible and well-spoken woman.
Thanks sister. Love is bigger than religion. Most practical advice in the entire conversation.
Being all powerful ALLAH can change his diktats,atleast theoritically. To add to the problem all muslim countries barring one have more male population. It’s high time muslimas seek males(and convert) from other culture to strengthen Islam. Aleef Laam meem…You never know
I dont actually agree with your comment. We dobt live in a Muslim country and not everyone is Muslim. But marrying non Muslims isnt a good option. What happenes if tomorrow your partner refuses to allow ypu to raise your children with Islamic principles. Will you leave him and your children? What effect would this have on your children. You must understand so many aspects of Muslim life are just not compatible with some sections of society. Christians have a drinking culture. For some one like me who detests alcohol how would a muslim live in a household with an alcoholic? And what culture and ethos will you raise your children with. You are already living in a western country with a different culture and there is already that identity issue.I wouldnt want to add more to it with more identity issues. What I feel is muslims shouldnt be rigid to selecting people just from their cultures. If a Pakistani/Indian muslim who grew up in US wants to get married to a Turkish muslim there is nothing wrong with it and should be encouraged.
There are so many cases of muslim women marrying non muslim men and moving away from Imaan and Islam. Is that a kind of future you would wish for your children? I have known few women who married non muslim men. Most moved astray from the path of Islam. They almost compell you to disown your religion and culture.Add to it the culture of Islamophobia that exists in US.and you get a potent mix.
I want to get 2nd marry i am poor i want to get marry with a reach muslim woman in pakistan or out i want get marry with over age
As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah…
I have to say, I understand exactly what you mean. I, even though 25 find it difficult communicating with the average guy I meet, its like they are on one wavelength, no one seems interested in the topic of development of ones inner self… or anything…. they expect you to be this “girly girl” of mediocre proportions, anyone different or interesting doesn’t get taken seriously
It is also because of my career that guys find me “outspoken” and “different” … I am a designer, Its in my creative nature to be different. I feel that guys need to get rid of the barrier of looking for what they want and rather see someone for the unique person Allah Azwajjal has created… indeed all of His (subhanahu wa ta’ala) creation is magnificent..
I will make dua for you sister.
Sr
A. Khan
I enjoyed reading this article very much. In my early 20’s, I put off marriage because I was very invested in school. I do not regret that decision in the least. In any case, I did not meet anyone suitable during this entire time, so it has not made much of a difference. The Muslim men I met were not practicing Muslims. It seemed like the only rule they followed was not eating pork. Now in my mid 20’s, the trouble is meeting Muslim men, pork eating or not. It’s hard enough meeting any Muslim people in general. Because my parents divorced, my family was ostracized from the rest of the family. We don’t get invited to their functions so we don’t get to meet other people. It makes it very hard. And then for some reason I get the impression that I’m supposed to take the first person who knocks on my door just because they knocked – not that anyone’s knocking. InshAllah Khayr. It’s a little early in the game, but I think I would be just fine if I remained unmarried. I need to reconcile myself with the idea, start getting used to it just in case. I would like to have kids and meet someone, but maybe I will adopt and provide a child who doesn’t have a family with a mother.
I wish there was some feasible way that Muslim men and women could meet each other in a natural way. I feel bad for my younger sisters. I’ve watched one of them try and find a Muslim guy only to give up and go out with a non-Muslim because she craved affection. I don’t think that everyone has the strength or the will-power to hold out, especially when everyday western culture wears away at your principles. I’ve talked to my dad about this, tried to hint to him what was going on with my sister, but he lives in the middle east and he doesn’t seem to care very much whether we get married or not. It’s all the same to him as long as nobody does haram – and if I even mention to him that my sis is going off the path, he’ll have a fit and he might not speak to her. Sometimes I feel that because we were born and raised in America that my father doesn’t care about our welfare as much as he would if we were born and raised overseas. Anyway, I can’t depend on match-making aunties or my father to help, so I can only pray to God for the best for all of us.
Maya,
There are two things I would suggest to you
1) there are some very nice muslim men out there – its a question of finding one and being in the right ie positive frame of mind when you do. Indeed having a partner is something quite innate…and not being able to find a muslim partner when there are so many in the world will not be a sufficient excuse for marrying a non muslim
2) consider moving area/country to where there are more muslim people or look at avenues where you can establish contact with single muslim men via the internet (eg matrimonial sites) for example, make the effort….
3) dont even consider or prepare yourself for anything but finding the right partner for yourself….put in all the effort you can now…even though it is your parents responsibility to support you in meeting someone good for you ultimately whether you do or not is Allah’s will…stay positive…..keep trying….
i am 37 and still unmarried. I blame it on the fact that Muslim women in the West are trash. I am unable to find a good Muslim woman in the West. Most of them are infected with feminism and want to lord over the men.
I do feel for this Muslim sister, but the door swings both ways here. As a single 27 yr. old Muslim male I’m trying very hard not to be bitter about being dissected by Muslim sisters about everything . I’m average and well adjusted, but I don’t make six figures or I’m not 7ft tall. In the rare event I’m introduced to someone and eventually rejected, I come out feeling like a useless bag of flesh. Why? Because I’m judged on such a cold and baseless manner. Just being a good person that can take care of someone for life and raise a family isn’t good enough. I always thought I would get married way younger and to someone my age, I don’t “fool around” nor have I ever wanted to. A part of me wonders if they don’t just hold out until they can find the wealthiest guy they can find, which is usually someone older.
I really don’t see myself ever getting married the way things are however this article has opened my eyes a little. I see that older single sisters can relate to some degree. It never occurred to me to look farther past my age. I have absolutely no problem marrying a Muslim girl 35+ especially after what I’ve been through. I’m done with girls under 30, most are just in to themselves, clueless and a waste of time. Now that I think about it, I would prefer someone older that does not have that unattractive self-centered quality.
Strange to see everyone blaming the opposite gender. Patience and prayer thats what i tell myself.
So true bro! Its strange that I see all these 30+ women around here in London UK saying that where have all the good Muslim men gone lol. They were there and they are still here. They asked you for your marriage since you were 20 but you rejected all of them because you wanted ‘Muslim Brad Pit’ West & Hollywood has corrupted the minds of muslims and mostly our ladies unfortunately that there is the concept of ‘this one’! I had a horrible incident where I found this hijabi girl had slept with 12 guys prior to meeting me and after spending long time with me she just dumped over an email! Most of my friends have gone through similar incidences where one was rejected for earning £200 less than they idealized, other was too short, the other was too big, the other was too dark, one didnt have blond hair and blue eyes and strangely even one of the revert was asked to shave his beard off!!!
Unfortunately the only solution I see is to get back married from home. Those women still know the meaning of marriage alhamdulillah.
I hope my comment is not censored because last one was never published!
I was forced into a marraige by my parents and my husband was a jerk. My parents wanted me to marry another Hyderabadi, and my husband was the worst of the worst. He used to physically, mentally and emotionally abuse me every day. He kept telling me how worthless I was and how I was not a good wife. I even wore hijab but he complained that I was too liberal in some of my views.
Like most Hyderabadi men, he treated me like I was a dog on a leash and I was his property. One day he went crazy and he punched me in the face and left me with a bloody nose for talking back to him in front of his parents and his cousins.
My parents practically disowned me because I decided to file for a divorce from this abusive psycho. I refused to stay married to a man who would abuse me the way he did. I told myself I would never marry another Hyderabadi or any Indo Pak male ever again.
Alhamdulillah, I did not have any kids at the time and I had the courage to leave. I am a woman with an MBA and I ended up marrying an American guy I met in my self defense class. He is respectful of Islam and treats me with respect and dignity.
I know in my heart that I made the right decision to be with someone who respects me as a woman and who doesn’t abuse me. I know that Allah does NOT hate him and knows that he is a nice man in his heart. I pray that no woman should ever have to go through what I went through in my first marraige.
It is sad to say, but many times the non muslim males treat the muslim women with more respect and dignity than the muslim men.
AstagfiruAllah! marrying a non muslim men is haraam! You should fear Allah and just ponder over the meaning of this life for a moment. we should obey Allah regardless of hardships we face in life since HE will reward us for being patient iA
Muslimah with Courage: You did the right thing. Congratulations on your re-marriage. The reason why Islam wants Muslim women to only marry Muslim men is that her rights in Islam can only be implemented by a Muslim husband – under a Muslim legal system.
It was set up with good intention to protect Muslim women when “living under a dominant Islamic socio-economic system”. Non-Muslim wives were absorbed into Muslim households in the past during Islam’s domination – but not non-Muslim husbands – who lived in different communities with different laws. This is not the case in the west.
Your Muslim ex-husband did NOT provide you with your basic rights, he abused you as a person on all levels. He did not protect you. This defeats the entire reason for marrying a Muslim man to begin with.
In the west, we do not have access to any of our rights in Islam nor can our rights be implemented or enforced. This leaves many Muslim women vulnerable – marrying Muslim men without accessing any of the accompanying rights.
To those specific Muslim men who lack goodness, who defiled God’s trust and command of treating their wives with kindness – they should receive the brunt of “fear Allah” cries from Muslims concerning their ill-treatment women – rather than the reverse – which is the endless buckets of slop held over Muslim women’s heads and the required dumping when they choose to marry good and decent non-Muslims after experiencing our own systemic failures.
@ Nab…its not that women from Pakistan still know the meaning of marriage its more to do with not having that much of a choice and wanting to leave their country, family and friends for financial security….women here are fussy and so are men..if women want Brad Pitt ( I prefer Luke Goss 🙂 men want dolly birds too… thats a poor argument…..you mention a hijaabi that has slept with 12 men (I wont ask how you got to that figure…) there are male equivalents which you forget to mention…perhaps the answer is that fat, dark, short, financially weak men should go for women that are in their remit and not jump for women that are better earners, better looking, better financially and of course much more fair and lovely then them ….we are no longer in Pakistan – were you have little choice due to the misogynist culture…and a man has to be rich (or from the UK) and a woman attractive (and submissive – but we findout just how submissive a couple of kids later 🙂 to seal the deal..here women have done well for themselves and expect the same – and are just being honast…perhaps thats the problem….
Well it seems like I have touched a few nerves here 😀 Aoa Rehaam. First of all I will try my best to reply to your every point in most helpful way since this is not about winning and basically its about an issue that mostly everyone is facing here in West.
I presented to you a point of view from brothers. The article written is pretty one sided. I can see from your previous messages that mashaAllah you seem to be a practising sister. I do agree with some of the things that you have raised but I will respond to a few things that you have said too
“…but the biggest is that they want someone who they feel they can handle…ie has inferior intelligence and will not challange their egos….”
The former things I dont necessarily agree, I have seldom seen brothers who want an inferior wife, I dont know how you came to that conclusion. If someone wants a wife who can cook and clean a little bit, that doesnt necessarily mean that the wife he is looking for is inferior. May be these are roles that Allah intended for both sexes that men would go out and provide for the family whereas the women would be handle daily household issues and children. This equality mania in West almost to the point of gender role reversal is the main cause of women not getting married in my opinion.
“And God forbid if a woman is a divorcee or and has a child….good luck honey, because if you aint a virgin your not counted…unless of course he is equally a divorcee….and even then your lucky…”
Unfortunately you are correct about the awful attitudes we have towards divorcee but do not necessarily agree with non virgin hypothesis. I dont know how someone could ask for a virgin girl in the West. Even though yes I see many practising brothers and sisters daily but when you get close to them soon they will confide that how they used to lead double lives during their teenage years with sex and drinking.
“It saddens me to say this but if muslim men acted like muslim men and not egotistical opportunist beings who wanted the ‘best deal’ rather than a partner – there wouldnt be a problem…”
This is more so the problem with women over here! Let me give you my example, alhamdulillah earn quite a lot, highly educated and religious background alhamdulillah, have such a good job by the grace of Alllah that when I tell me I can literally see their jaw drop lol, have been told I am quite good looking, very athletic and sporty, the only outward ‘problem’ I could see with myself is that I am not tall but not too short either. Anyway after six months of constanly my Arab hijabi ex telling me everyday she loved me more than anyone else in this World and then she cant wait to marry me, she cuts off contact with me over an email! She went to Paris and spent her entire time with non mahram non Muslim men over there and then came back here and told me later that she would prefer blonde hair and blue eyes. SubhanAllah I had not forced her to like my black hair and brown eyes, moreover is it just about physical characteristics, funny if I was looking for the same things, the society would have termed me as shallow. Anyway now she is spending her weekends with a non Muslim English guy, hurts me to see that this is the girl who I gave my heart out, and funny thing is she still attends Islamic circles and her friends still think she is really nice Muslim. So after this I really suffered from self esteem issues because I thought it was me that was just not worth anyone! I contacted this brother at masjid and told him everything, this is where the fun begins, He got married back home and he advised me to do that too. Now when I asked him why did that, this may surprise you, He is a few inches above six, quite sturdy, I would say quite decent looking. He told me that he along with his parents met with loads of girls and families and they rejected him. One of the funny reasons that gave me a lot of confidence that he was rejected was that he looks too big and tall haha and then I realized it cant be my heights, its a problem with female mindset here looking for ‘best deal’ as you yourself so eloquently put it.
and Btw Pakistan is my home and I wasnt born over here alhamdulillah, I was brought up in Saudi and alhamdulillah am safe from lot of evils here. The only reason I thought of marrying here were two, first I read an article in Guardian that Muslims girls or the vast majority of them remain single since majority of men get married back home and I thought being a Muslim I should do my part and secondly I like confident and successful women (or who appear to be lol) but Now no more because back then I defined success as more from a college degree and biz perspective, now I just want a religious wife who wants to be a wife and not a boss but a life partner iA.
“fat, dark, short, financially weak men should go for women that are in their remit and not jump for women that are better earners, better looking, better financially and of course much more fair and lovely then them ….”
Muslims should be careful about what they say. All the above are just Worldly criteria for finding life partners, as to how well they work in finding a stable partner, we just have to look at the lovely family lives people have in Western countries 😀 May be we should stop labelling people as fat, dark, short and financially weak, may be the solution is to ignore the apparent weakness and look for any good inside and get help from Istikhara.
You are my sister, but think about it, the problem is that its the women here are not getting married and thus more exposed to satanic desires. Men are finding it difficult but still compromise and get married alhamdulillah. Yes I know there are exceptions, there is always that pretty girl who will fool around but she will still get married because she is pretty. There is always that guy who is millionaire and that cash is enough to hide his any weakness whatsoever. But for vast majority of us, we are just average looking and should be proud since Allah has made us that way and we have average bank accounts 🙂 Do you really think with this problem of more and more sisters struggling in getting married, its no fault of their mentality and just bad, evil, horrible and ignorant men or the culture. I will request you to go to your local masjid and talk to few decent brothers and ask them frankly what problems they are facing trying to get married to save themselves from zina and you will be amazed by the answers you will get. Most of them have been rejected by dozen families! Do you think they dont feel hurt by all this and as a last resort they decide they get married back home.
May be sisters like you should team up with brothers and try to help people out with regards to this problem, Changing the mindset of younger generation that there is no Hollywood ‘the one’ out there for you, life is hardship and we have to improve ourselves and our partners iA. I am up for this if you are!
1) Apologies, I am not your sister, or practising (I leave that definition for the more arrogant), also no raw nerve – this conversation is old…perhaps new to you but old for me … 🙂
2) Interesting: ‘If someone wants a wife who can cook and clean a little bit, that doesnt necessarily mean that the wife he is looking for is inferior’. Not necessarily, no….perhaps an imbalance in the relationship is what creates inferiority rather then cooking and cleaning..but thank you for clarifying,…
3) ‘I dont know how someone could ask for a virgin girl in the West’, who ‘are exposed to satanic desires’ What a wild assuption to make, I suggest you change your friends….you might be surprised at how many chaste men and women live in the West….. men and women….
4) ‘Anyway after six months of constanly my Arab hijabi ex telling me everyday she loved me..’ I understand….youre not happy for her to go off with a non mehram but youre ok for her to tell a non mehram that she loves him every day for 6 months provided that is you…very Islamic….
But perhaps because youve been raised in Saudi and therefore, as you suggest you are ‘safe from lot of evils here’
5) ‘May be we should stop labelling people as fat, dark, short and financially weak..’ did you say you were , ‘alhamdulillah earn quite a lot, highly educated and religious background alhamdulillah, have such a good job by the grace of Alllah that when I tell me I can literally see their jaw drop lol, have been told I am quite good looking, very athletic and sporty,’ Lol! We are allowed to find our partners attractive…so I am not labelling however, seems like youre labelling….Im suggesting that men need to look at themselves before writing up a unrealistic criteria..
6) Talk to decent brothers, well seeing that I know men who are chaste and you know non seems I do know some decent brothers…I suggest you fnd a few too…
7) Thank you for the favour you tried to bestow on women in the UK after reading the Guardian and wanting someone to help you pay the mortgage know that you know you cant have the cake and eat it please do go back to Pakistan, I am sure you’ll make some woman very happy !
Sorry if that was a bit harsh…. no offence intended thankyou for helping me make my point by a live example! 🙂
1) Apologies, I am not your sister, or practising (Yes you are right, someone as arrogant as you could not be my sister anyway 😉 )
3) Based on my experience talking with others. I dont think younger people would not be that comfortable sharing their life secrets with older people, may be!
4) I am only human, unlike you, Miss Right 🙂
5) Bitterness lol haha
7) “wanting someone to help you pay the mortgage know that you know you cant have the cake and eat it please do go back to Pakistan, I am sure you’ll make some woman very happy !” I could pay the mortgage for your entire family by the grace of Allah, btw alhamdulillah I dont deal with mortgages but judging by your comment, you probably love it.
Also why dont your dad to go back to Pak too. 😉 Also I was invited and sponsored by my company alhamdulillah unlike someone like you who probably begged the white man to stay by telling them the horrors you would face in Pakistan. The white man was really nice to let you stay and now do you actually believe that you are British lol 😀
Btw Alhamulillah its a good thing that some of us dont get married even at age 38 , do you know why because its better to stay single than to wreck a brother’s home 😉
Sorry if that was a bit harsh…. no offence intended thankyou for helping me make my point by a live example! 😉
Raw nerve indeed…stafford the above is no doubt a very well thought out and logical retaliation to your hurt ego but it doesn’t make any sense…..anyway…lol! I forgot to mention the most important point …
…when they ( Asians) came from abroad mostly in the 60’s most came from insecure backgrounds (insecure in terms of finance, education, religion,family and character) not all, but most…they worked hard educated their children, ensured they had good jobs but unfortunately education could not secure character and good manners and you cant teach it if you don’t have it….(again not all I am not saying that a vulnerable background equates to lack of character – ) ..thats why even in educated men (and I’m sure women too) you find that even though they are doing well in terms of money their mentality really does come from the village gutter as seen above…..judgemental: because they want to be better then the next person….arrogant: because they are insecure…..and haughty: because God has given them too much and instead of being grateful they become proud…..and just plain tacky: where they point at all Western muslim women and question their chastity without knowledge (non Islamic) ; where they speak about the indescretions of another woman openly (non Islamic) ; where they need to throw about how much they earn (non Islamic) …or where they need to bring the parents of another into a discussion (non Islamic) while all the while saying Alhumdolillah in every sentance, or other…that is gutter mentality….just bad upbringing and insecurities ….and it seems Staffords heritage has still left him with something to prove…so some go to the white women, some go to prison, some go to Pakistan and some are just plain untouchables!
Apologies sincerest apologies to all British/Western Asians above is true but not applicable to the respondant Staffordtest…who is from Pakistan and not British (if it makes a difference- you do have that mentality here too).
Lol….Staffordtest, really no offence but men from Pakistan for some Western women are the very last and painful resort and for some women not an option at all….ever….regardless of concequence…
How could I forget….how many of my friends married Pakistani/Indian man (from Pakistan/India) in good faith only to divorce her once he got the passport…..yes, and there are those too…..
haha you crazy women, no your replies didnt hurt me, in fact I have been sharing your replies with my friends and we have had a really good laugh 🙂 We can see the long term mental effects of not getting married!
‘I, for one, have observed a lack of the kind of emotional maturity, empathy, street smarts, drive, and independence in both Muslims and Muslimahs…I, as a convert, have had the kinds of life experiences that a lot other Muslims probably never had, including living on my own and working to pay for school (among other things)’. Tempesh Desh
“And how could I forget the ‘superior’ convert…?”
Omg, what did she say, she was just saying that she had to work hard to get things unlike you who was spoilt by your parents who in turn was looting a white men by telling him what would have happened if you were forced to return to your county. What is wrong with you!!!
Your comments are just so full of absurdness and hatred that I would sincerely advise you that rather than looking to get married. you should go to a mental hospital and get regular therapy sessions.
To be honest, I have got so many important things to do in my life than to respond to a racist (I dont care whether you are Arab or Pakistani/Indian, you are just scum of the Earth) and egotistical maniac.
This is my last reply and no matter what you say I am not going to respond anymore and I sincerely apologize to others for these posts because I only replied in the beginning assuming I was talking to a sensible person and wanted a constructive exchange of ideas but I had no idea that I was dealing with a feminazi and misanthropist..
Response as expected….
(‘I dont care whether you are Arab or Pakistani/Indian, you are just scum of the Earth’) …for note I did not say that….but Staffy already knows that – good muslim that he is…. 🙂
I agree get on with the better things you have in life…chase some other hijaabi and when she figures you out for what you are label her having slept with 12 men..disgusting….point made I think….however, I know not all men are like you….thankfully….. next time you think you can slate Western women maybe you’ll think twice….probably not though…..short man syndrome?
Good article by Zeba Iqbal. Often the Prophet Muhammad is mentioned for his marriages. Zeba wrote:
“More importantly, the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) married women that were older/younger, thinner/fatter, darker/lighter, taller/shorter, stronger/weaker, etc. Except for Bibi Khadija, none of his wives had children, and yet they were the ‘best of women’.”
The Prophet married for a number of reason that we would not consider today. Some marriages were for political alliances to further the Muslim cause, others were to ensure the care of widows of men who were killed in wars. His wives were Muslim, Christian and Jewish.
Khadija, who is a giant amongst Muslim women, needs to be examined from a slightly different perspective. We are not sure what her religion was during the pre-Islamic period although her cousin Waraqa was a Christian. The Prophet was a “Hanif” or “one who turned away” – from the polytheistic beliefs of that time, before his prophethood.
The constant example by Muslims of Khadija re: she was older, proposed to him re: Muslim women and marriage – is often blurred by historical realities. Undoubtly Khadija became a superior example as one of the four “perfect women” in Islam and her life reflects her great nobleness. However, we must not forget that her position and proposal to Muhammad occured during the social circumstances of PRE-Islam.
Khadija’s freedom to act as she did was a result of her high social status and affluence in Mecca, rather than due to being a Muslim woman (which she was NOT at the time). Dr. Leila Ahmed’s renowned book “Women and Gender in Islam” notes that Khadija was not raised as a Muslim (nor did she marry as a Muslim) and her control of her business and wealth, her proposal to Muhammad, her marriage seemingly without an intermediary, the age difference, his fidelity to her without taking another wife during their marriage – all represent customs which favored rights for well-positioned women of that time.
Lower status women (the majority) had severe lack of rights in pre-Islamic Arabia, which are well documented, including female infanticide – which Islam ended.
Islamic marriage laws encorporated much of the existing tribal laws of the time. Some of the pre-Islamic marriage customs include: Marriage by agreement, marriage by capture (or concubinage – retained in Islam), marriage by purchase (including a form of mahr which was paid to the father – not in Islam), marriage by inheritance (outlawed by Islam) and temporary or Mut’ah marriage (still practised by some Muslims today).
The restrictions and rules which govern Muslim marriage are almost impossible to apply in a modern-day western context. We now look for compatibility (on various levels) in mates. In the past it was about survival. The struggles single Muslim women face re: marriage, as noted in Zeba’s article, need to be addressed in a context which is relevant today.
Telling women they are “too picky” is the wrong answer and of no help. Rude remarks which assume that the bulk of unmarried women over age 35, are still single, as they only want handsome, rich husbands serves to highlight the lack of understanding of Muslim women’s challenges and social realities in the west.
The damage from lack of compatibility in marriage is resulting in almost 1 out 3 Muslim marriages in the USA ending in divorce (whether they be handsome, rich, poor, smart, beautiful, plain or otherwise).
So sad that muslims are stabbing each other in every way imaginable .I wish that muslims could coexist and support each other regardless of their personal convictions
U put together a handful of fantastic tips in ur post, “Contemporary Muslim Woman
Series: Over 30 and Unmarried – Breaking a Stalemate
| GOATMILK: An intellectual playground edited by
Wajahat Ali” Window Treatment . I may wind up
returning to ur page soon enough. Thx ,Samira
Asalaam Aleykum.
To the Muslim Brothers who have given such insulting and negative comments all I can say is FEAR ALLAH.You will definitely be held accountable fort what you say.
To my unmarried 30+ sisters please do not let that send you to zina. Yes,I know some Non Muslim men are Mash Allah and you cannot help but hope they become Muslim.But as someone pointed out above we cannot change the Law of Allah.Islam is neither 7th century nor 21st century it is timeless.
The grass is not always greener on the other side.If your not married maybe that’s best for you.Spend your time by gaining religious knowledge adopt an orphan(Subhanallah there are plenty of orphaned Muslim children out there).Do not feel sorry for yourself and be patient.
Ultimately struggle for jannah and meeting Allah there.
May Allah make it easy for us all.
Zeba wrote: “Please stop ignoring me, and many others like me. I am part of a growing population of single women over 35 in our community, and we are not going away.”
Muslim women face a multitude of problems related to getting married here. Our choice to marry is taken away from us as we get past age 35 – as we are often overlooked for consideration. Although the larger population is able to marry in all age groups, Muslim women have it especially tough as we are restricted to only marrying Muslim men.
Some of our Islamic scholars have looked at this horrible situation and have examined the option of Muslim women marrying men of The Book (as our men are permitted to do). This is met with much opposition. Apparently Islamic law is now responsible for a great many Muslim women to never become wives or mothers (have their own family) if they choose to. Nor are they subject to the protections within Sharia for their care as Islamic laws are enforced on us but cannot be implemented. It cannot be both ways.
Those unmarried Muslim women past the age of 40 or 50 are left in this society to be on our own. We were in our youth over twenty years ago. Much has changed now, but our situation is not improving. Many are subject to all the nonsensical situations mentioned by Zeba in her article.
Has anyone considered what the next generation of Muslim women will do?
I strongly state that they will look back at our existing generation of mature women and what happened to us and firmly decide that they will “never” subject themselves to the same nonsense and injustices.
If they do not find a suitable Muslim man to marry, they will most likely marry non-Muslims and get on with their lives. 20 years from now (if even that) they will not sit around waiting for introductions etc to Muslim men if they haven’t already met them socially. They will not go through the situations noted by Zeba. They will marry when they want and to whomever they want. They will ensure they are never like “us” – nor should they have to be.
I for one am quite sick of all the misapplication of religion. Telling a woman who wishes to marry that it may be best if she doesn’t due to lack of Muslim husband, or denying her the option to have a family or to live in solitude – is NOT okay nor normal.
It’s time to seriously consider accommodating marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men. This will ensure their children are received in our communities and not lost.
Al-Jazeera noted in a Dec 31, 2012 online article: ” ‘Halal’ interfaith unions rise among UK women – Some religious leaders are coming to terms with rising numbers of Muslim-Christian couples”. It notes an interfaith marriage support group in the UK. Previously it was mainly Muslim men with non-Muslim women, but now about half are Muslim women with non-Muslim partners. Similar groups are underway in Germany, France and Austria.
That article also states: Interfaith relationships have at times led to ostracism and violence against the couples, sometimes even resulting in forced marriages and honour killings. According to the UK constabulary 2,823 honour crimes were reported to the police in 2010 and an estimated 10,000 forced marriages take place in Britain every year. It should be strongly noted that Islam does not promote honor crimes or forced marriages – these are cultural deviances of the worst kind
Important: The next generation of Muslim women may “not” even bother to ask for religious accommodation for their unions. We should make an effort to address this now, in order to be of any influence over the following generation. The insistence of both parents being Muslim for their children’s sake is being rapidly diluted. The fact that nearly 1 out of 3 Muslim marriages in North America is ending in divorce is not helping Muslim children (with both parents being Muslim).
The challenges faced by many Muslim women in North America re: marriage is overwhelming and fantasies based on what “should” be versus what “is” – so far has failed miserably to deliver any substantial answers.
Muslim women are not allowed to marry non muslim men – this is in the Quran..this is not ‘the misapplication of religion’ – this is the religion. One either accepts it or does not – what we cannot do is change whats written in black and white and therefore I’m not sure how we can ‘seriously consider accommodating marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men’. What muslims need to do is start changing their misogynist ways, their culture and accept polygamy and start practicing Islam spiritually not just practically – both men and women are guilty of this. There is no negotiation with Allahs law……the art of negotiation lies with Satan…..
And what happens to the lives of Muslim women until or if the day comes when “Muslims need to do is start changing their misogynist ways, their culture”? Which culture?
The misapplication of religion occurs when the original laws intended to actually protect women (as applied in circumstances where Muslim husbands have the ability to ensure their wives’ Islamic rights, where non-Muslim husbands cannot) does NOT exist now as we do not live in a domain where such laws can be applied by anyone.
As a result, an enormous distortion has occured where Muslim women are obligated to marry only Muslim men but such men cannot provide them with the legal requirements in Islam – as no such authority or proviso exists.
This distortion is now making it extremely difficult for Muslim women living in the west to marry. Marriage is promoted in Islam but denied to many of our sisters.
I certainly hope when – as you stated Muslims “accept polygamy” – those Muslims who do so in North America have a good lawyer on hand when the police show up and arrest them.
In other words, we have a situation where:
– Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women.
– Large numbers of Muslim women here are unable to marr.
– Or women are to accept being wife number 2 or 3 or 4 and share their husband – before their husband is carted off to jail for breaking the law. These women have no legal standing in polygamy as their “marriages” are not recognized and are null and void. The first wife is the only legal wife.
Non sequitur responses are of no help in a situation affecting the lives many Muslim women.
It’s unfortunate that any attempt to address serious issues re: Muslim women (as Imams in the UK are now doing) is equated with “negotiating with Satan”. Those who leave Muslim women in unjust situations are the ones who have Satan on speed-dial.
(As previous response does not show)
‘Non sequitur responses are of no help in a situation affecting the lives many Muslim women’.
Neither is changing the law of Allah as written by Him….
RE: Changing the law of Allah – example: The Qur’an states specifically that Muslims must fast from sunrise to sunset.
A major issue came up when Muslims began to live in northern latitudes such as Scandinavians countries or northern Canada. In such parts of the world there is daylight for up to 20 hours per day (the sun barely descends beyond the horizon) or it is night up to 20 hours in the winter. Therefore a fast day could be 20 hours long or 3 or 4 hours short.
A fatwa was given by the Ministry of Justice in Cairo that Muslims in such places should fast similar hours to those of Muslim countries of close proximity. No one was expected to fast for only 4 hours or as long as 20 hours. The hours were pre-set and not determined by the actual rising or setting of the sun.
Although the Qur’an states (2:187) ” …. You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn. Then, you shall fast until sunset. . .God thus clarifies His revelations for the people . . .”
Only two verses before (2:185) “God wishes for you convenience, not hardship . . .” Exemption such as for illness are noted.
The specifics of when a fast begins and when it should end is described in the Qur’an (“God thus clarifies”) – yet this requirement is directly disregarded due to the situation of Muslims and their environment – which is not the norm or environment of places closer to the equator with more balanced hours.
When considering the situation of our unmarried Muslim sisters it is also important to reiterate that God does not wish us hardship. The existing situation with our women contradicts the spirit of mercy by imposing hardships on our sisters which are out of context to the original intent.
The point of this fast day example is to show that due to circumstances and environment, Muslims may find themselves eating during Ramadan when the sun is shining (contrary to the Qur’anic understanding) and still be within the scope of “halal”.
It is called “accommodation” and yes, the actual specifics of the requirement re: what constitutes day vs night is not adherred to, yet this issue was handled from a more reality based perspective, although literalists would say this accommodation “changes the law of God” and would prefer to see Muslims go through the severe hardship of 20-hour fasts or the ease of a 4-hour fast (both situations which defeat the entire purpose of fasting).
That is a good example Sarah however, I would suggest polar days and nights are created by Allah not man hence, the accommodation – to allow the practice of a farz. The situation of women today are man made – the law stands.
It’s interesting that something as solid one of the five pillars in Islam (fasting) is given accommodation to “alter the law”, however Muslim women (half our ummah) are not.
One could argue that moving to a northern country was also a man made situation and the law should not be altered to accommodate anyone. Why not simply tell Muslims that the hours of fasting cannot be changed as the Qur’an specifically states from sunrise to sunset? Why not tell Muslims that moving to a northern place is their problem and long or short days cannot be accommodated? Perhaps Muslims should just stay in places where the length of a day is not an issue – but changing the law is impossible?
The answer is not one due to polar days or nights but rather from the use of reason as Muslims found themselves in unusual situations – much like our Muslim sisters are now in the west.
Here are a few examples that were given accommodation (for men):
– Muslim men on war campaigns had temporary marriages to temporary wives for their sexual needs (campaigns are man made situations)
– Muslim men had sexual rights to their concubines or slaves although they were not married to them (capturing women are man made situations)
– Muslim men can have up to four wives (taking multiple wives are man made situations)
– Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women (decision to marry non-Muslim women are man made situations)
The situation of women today are indeed man or rather “male” made – is more accurate. Muslim men get religious accommodation (strangely around their sexual needs and choices), Muslim women do not get such accommodation and are told to live without a spouse or have their own family if they are unable to marry a Muslim male. But polar days/nights will be attended to and given priority.
Women are also created by God (“not” man made). Perhaps it’s time we remembered that.
All of the above mentioned (apart from temporary marriage – and so I’ll ignore that for the purposes of this discussion) is mentioned in the Quran and that is not man made….
The Quran clarifies what a man can do or a woman cannot do… and faith requires we accept it to be final. We have ownership over our decisions as we have the power of choice – we do not have the power to change Allahs rules….even where we suffer…..
‘Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: “We believe,” and will not be tested’. Sura 29
Then why does Islamic Jurisprudence exist if it’s simply a matter of what the Qur’an says?
The following is a quote on this subject:
“Some topics are without precedent in Islam’s early period. In those cases, Muslim jurists (Fuqaha) try to arrive at conclusions by other means. Sunni jurists use historical consensus of the community (Ijma); a majority in the modern era also use analogy (Qiyas) and weigh the harms and benefits of new topics (Istislah), and a plurality utilize juristic preference (Istihsan).”
A topic “without” precedent in Islam’s early period is Muslim women living as an absolute minority in non-Muslim lands (our case now). Muslim women in Islam’s early period lived within a Muslim majority system with access to all their rights in Islam. They were under that jurisdiction -we today are not.
Muslim men who were away on campaigns were also “not” living under such jurisdiction and were then given accommodation for temporary marriages (Mut’ah).
We must agree that the Qur’an gives ample leverage to men, over women, concerning sexual access and marriage choices – for males.
Noteworthy: Another form of Muslim marriage which alters what is in the Qur’an (and approved by leading Muslim jurists/scholars including in Saudi Arabia) is “Nikah Misyar” – “a marriage carried out via the normal contractual procedure, with the specificity that the husband and wife give up several rights by their own free will, such as living together, the wife’s rights to housing, and maintenance money (“nafaqa”), and the husband’s right of homekeeping, and access etc.”
This clearly contradicts the Qur’anic understanding of marriage and associated responsibilities and given rights.
The reason is (from source): “Islamic lawyers add that this type of marriage ‘fits the needs’ of a conservative society which punishes “zina” (fornication) and other sexual relationships which are established outside a marriage contract. Thus, some Muslim foreigners working in the Persian Gulf countries prefer to engage in the misyar marriage rather than live alone for years”.
As the issue of Muslim women in the west is resulting in many being left without spouses, it is reasonable to conclude that of all the accommodation for men and the long history of Islamic jurisprudence to attend to Muslims’ ever changing needs and circumstances, it’s time to address the issue of marriage for Muslim women to non-Muslims (a solution which ‘fits the needs’ of our women if they choose it).
A number of Imams and Islamic scholars are doing so now – people who are very well read in the Qur’an and and Islamic practice – as they are attempting to view this situation from the perspective of one without precedent in Islam’s early period.
If as in the case of accommodating Nikah Misyar – where Muslims give up certain rights to marry – why not give Muslim women the option to give up their rights to marry a non-Muslims if they choose to? It is important to note that Muslim women do not have access to Islamic rights in western society anyway as we are not governed by Islamic laws.
Re: “All of the above mentioned (apart from temporary marriage – and so I’ll ignore that for the purposes of this discussion) is mentioned in the Quran and that is not man made”.
The mentioned circumstances “are” man made and the Qur’an addressed how these man made situations are to be handled. Islam encorporated a number of existing tribal laws and expanded or adjusted them.
An example is controversial tribal customs such as diyyat or blood money which remained an integral part of Islamic jurisprudence and affirmed by the Prophet (pbuh).
Slavery, polygamy, marriage to women outside one’s affiliated group were all man made, pre-existing situations which Islam addressed by, for example curbing the limit of wives to 4 however, the other examples existed and were definitely man made circumstances.
Most of the situations mentioned in the Qur’an are man made circumstances which require addressing – including existing social issues, economic issues (of rich and poor), of legal affairs, of politics and governance, of war.
Muslim women not being permitted to marry nkn Muslim men was due to the fact that the children wiuld not be brought up in Islamic culture. It is common to see in many inter faith marriages involving muslim women the children do not follow the Islamic religion and are going astray. This situation should be avoided. On other hand, I feel the question of Muslim men being allowed to marry women of the Book is not mentioned in the Quran. If I am not wrong this has its basis from the Hadith. Anyways the Qudan explicitly talks of not marrying your children to unbelievers both male or female. This is whag I feel is the right solution. Muslim men shouldn’t be allowed to marry women of the Book. As for muslim women going single, I feel the problem isnt as widespread as it is made out to be. But I find some parents are still very unflexible. I have known cases where South Asian muslims do not want their children to marry muslims from countries like Lebanon, Jordan etc. This is ridiculous when taking into account that both have been raised in US and have absorbed some aspects of American culture. so why are parents opposing their unions just for not belonging to their cultures.
I completely agree with you on this. Unlike muslim , christian across nationality marry each other. Their government and institute have student exchange progrmme, which which brought inter -nationality marriages(that is why they call themselves international community), but non of our government have this (soft agenda) in their agenda. Even OIC is dumb. Our institution ,our muslim rulers have failed. They only know repressing their people and and allow no desent.
But Our Prophet said , “Go out of “Qabila” ie. mary outside and increase Qabila.” Unfortunately we do not open up wih even fellow muslim.
Those who have resource or organising capability start “Student exchange programme across muslim countries and major muslim population country like India to bring more understanding among muslims. Let start instead of complaining.Our parents need education in Islam.
Quran says “We have created black,white, yelow -different people so that they understand each other. If we deal this seriously we can overcome the present mess.
But I was surprised by your next comment.
Allah is ALWAYS logical….you are “his” true follower
I agree with you all. I think its time we get rid off these evil filthy pigs called ‘Muslim Men’. Come on lets start with kicking the butts of our dad and brothers. Contrary to the popular belief, they OWE us everything. and NO we dont have a huge ego or a self deserving attitude!!!
After we are done with them, we should all ‘enjoy’ Non-Muslim men of Caucasian descent and have fun with blonde hair and blue eyes. Go Girl Power!!!!!
Well done trolling a serious issue. time to go back to your cave.
Yes, the practice of Islam has been turned and twisted to compensate for mans weak nature.
Personally, Im not happy to follow something ‘which alters what is in the Quran’ regardless of it being ‘approved by leading Muslim jurists/scholars including in Saudi Arabia.’
I have the ability to read and understand (MA) and where there is clear guidance in the Quran, I’m not one to seek the opinion of men, when I have the opinion of Allah….because at the end of it all I will be judged by Allah not some jurist, imam or scholar….
I understand your position however the Qur’an is best understood to those with training in classical Arabic and usage of words in context and style. Most of us cannot understand the nuances or contexual usage of its sophisticated language. The Qur’an also contains foreign words borrowed from Syriac, Nabatean, Greek, Coptic, Hebrew and a number of other languages although such words are deemed to be naturalized into Arabic. Translations are very limited and are actually interpretations.
Muslim scholars and commentators of the Qur’an are unanimous on the view that “no one” has the right to interpret the ayats of Quran according to ones personal view and opinion. Many traditions are narrated in this regard.
According to Tafseer Jameul Ahkaam of Qurtubi: “One who interprets the Quran according to his view, has committed a sin.” Also, a well known Hadith: “The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) said: One who interprets the Qur’an according to personal opinion makes his place in fire (Hell).”
This is why it’s so important to escalate issues to Islamic scholars who are properly trained in this science and find the necessary footing for our circumstances and application. The entire purpose of Islamic Jurisprudence is to assist Muslims in social, legal, economic, family law etc matters with the understanding that our situations do evolve. As we are suppose to function together as an Ummah, official and well substantiated religious opinions do matter for the sake of cohesion.
It is definitely not for individual, subjective opinion. Consensus on rulings is extremely important to ensure decisions reached follow a proper, established method and not turn into as many opinions as there are Muslims in the world – a chaotic approach indeed.
Sarah, are you suggesting that I have the inaccurate interpretation of the Quran when it says that a muslim woman can only marry a muslim man?
I am saying that our scholars have made exceptions to situations to allow for our changing circumstances. This includes mut’ah and misyar marriages. These types of marriages are not mentioned in the Qur’an but are permissible (or altered) – due to Muslims being in situation which were deemed to be out of the norm and requiring addressing. The situation with Muslim women in the west now falls into this category. It was never Islam’s intent to leave women without spouses, children if they chose to have this.
Although the Qur’an states that Muslim men are permitted to marry non-Muslim women (of the Book), the caliph Omar actually “banned” this type of marriage during his time for the sake of protecting our women’s rights. He negated what the Qur’an permitted.
Here is are examples of Qur’anic verses which is often cited in the media to ‘demonstrate’ Islam’s supposed intolerance:
“And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you” (Quran 2:190). Sadly, this verse is taken out of context by ignorant Muslims to perpetuate violence. Or: “And kill them wherever ye catch them . . ”
Here is the correct context per Islamic scholar Muhammad Asad who explains 2:190 in the following manner:
“This and the following verses lay down unequivocally that only self-defence (in the widest sense of the word) makes war permissible for Muslims. Most of the commentators agree in that the expression “La ta’tadu” signifies, in this context, “do not commit aggression”; while by al-Mu’tadin “those who commit aggression” are meant.
The defensive character of a fight “in God’s cause” – that is, in the cause of the ethical principles ordained by God – is, moreover, self-evident in the reference to “those who wage war against you”, and has been still further clarified in 22: 39 – “permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged” – which, according to all available Traditions, constitutes the earliest (and therefore fundamental) Quranic reference to the question of jihad, or holy war (see Tabari and Ibn Kathir in their commentaries on 22: 39).
That this early, fundamental principle of self-defence as the only possible justification of war has been maintained throughout the Qur’an is evident from 60:8, as well as from the concluding sentence of 4:91, both of which belong to a later period than the above verse.”
The misunderstanding and abuse of this and other related verses by Muslims have led to a lot of tragedy, yet such verses are pointed to for justification stating “it is written in the Qur’an” – and unfortunately believed by many in a negative manner. Such belief is devoid of context and historical background and has led to an incredible amount of damage.
The context for Muslim women is the assumption they are living under Muslim rule where a Muslim husband is in a position to fulfill his wife’s Islamic legal rights re: marriage. This includes all aspects of her maintenance, mahr, sexual access, divorce requirements etc. The Qur’anic verse’s purpose was to protect and ensure women’s rights within an Islamic domain (something a non-Muslim husband cannot ensure). In the west, a Muslim husband has no capacity to fulfill his obligation as we do not live within a system that will enable him to actually implement any of this. A huge distortion is occuring at women’s expense.
Our current situation in the west (and worsening) is the verse re: Muslim women and marriage has resulted in many Muslim women simply being unable to marry due to our environment and circumstances – similar to what our men faced in the past in foreign lands yet they were given accommodation which altered Qur’anic injunctions and our women are not.
Fortunately a number of our Imams and Islamic scholars have recognized the need to address it now as the Qur’anic intent was not to leave our women in such situations. They are balancing the concepts of basic rights for women as expressed in Islam (husband, family, support) vs complete deprivation per our environment and circumstances.
I hope this answers your question.
My lovely lovely Sistas’ reading all of your comments particularly from the last two renowned and highly intellectual scholars of Islamic Ummah mashaAllah, I have come to conclusion we need no men to tell us what we should be doing!! Its about time sistas, lets kick their butt. You see Islam again all prophets were men, Sexist!!! Men have to go out and earn the living and then take care of us and our children while they think we are moaning and winging endlessly and busy doing nothing, again Sexist!! They have to travel out of their homes to the mosque to pray while we get to pray inside our homes huh!!
You see we Western brought up Muslim women have done nothing wrong at all. Some people blame us to have a highly self deserving attitude, a huge ego, and adopting the ways of kuffaar. Hell, some even go as far as to say we dont have any manners and are even confused between East and West. However the reality is far from it. They give us examples of happily married women from Asia and Arab countries. but you know what we aint like being treated a slave like all those stupid women. We aint gonna be treated like baby making machines staying at home and loving our families like women have done for centuries. Poor women of these third World chaotic and pathetic countries. We have got FREEDOM! We go out and enjoy. We are nobody’s slave! We can go out and dance drink and have sex but what matters is that we do what we want! Why are we expected to act like a decent muslim girl who will take care of family and fit the traditional roles HUH!!
And as for anyone who thinks we are not valuable. Well we all are approached by hundreds of mulsim men looking to marry when we are in our 20s but they want us to stop partying! What! and Moreover for us sistas who are the most prettiest/elegant and classy women in the World (much better looking the Megan Fox!) these men look like well Star Trek voyagers haha loollz!
As for sister Sarah, I totally agree with her. Its time all those hot non Muslim men (ONLY Blonde Caucasians please) who are yearning to spend the rest of their lives with us be allowed to have their birth right! That is when these Muslim men will realize what they have lost!! Then they will realize that its not that we had our heads up our backside when we were younger and are bitter now since we aint getting any which is obviously completely lie!
Sarah, yes lets change the religion after all the prophets are men!!!! Lets start by kicking our dad’s and bro’s butts. Sisters let us unite for our rights against this filthy men!!!!!
Re: Following Islamic laws and suffering to do so mindset:
It has been stated that “God has chosen for us a religion best suited to the nature of mankind, a religion that goes neither to the extremes of hardship nor of laxity, but instead provides a middle path; in other words, a religion of ease.”
It states repeatedly in the Qur’an: “Allah intends for you ease, and does not want to make things difficult for you” (2:185) and “Allah does not want to place you in difficulty” (5:6).
Hadith: “The best of your religion, is the easiest.”
Qur’an (10:128): “Verily there has come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves, it grieves him that you should suffer any difficulty, he is anxious for you, for the believers he is full of pity and merciful”.
Hadith: “Allah did not send me (Prophet) to be harsh, or cause harm, but He sent me to teach and make things easy” (Sahih Muslim).
Hadith: “Allah likes for this nation ease and hates for it hardship and adversity.” (Tabaraani).
Qur’an (5:6) re: abolution “…(if you) do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you…” – even the use of dirt is an accommodation.
The hardships and difficulty faced by Muslim women re: getting married here (as evidenced by the exponential growth of single Muslim women who wish to marry but cannot) – is not what Islam intended by law. Hence the need for redress or remedy for our circumstances.
Sara, we really are going in circles…….. Either you believe the Quran to be your guide in life or you dont – if you do then you have to agree with it totally whether you like it or nor, whether it fits your circumstances or not…if you want to marry a non muslim there is no one to stop you…..you might get some scholar to make a marriage with a non muslim halal – do you think Allah will consider it to be halal……when He has given His ruling on that clearly….you can’t fool Him……
Good luck with the decisions you make…
Rehaam: No one is attempting to “fool God” – what a silly remark. I clearly stated the need for scholarly examination of our situation. How is that fooling God? I never said that I, as an individual, would dare take on interpretating the Qur’an – as you professed to do. Our scholars and jurists (those qualified to do so) have the responsibility to examine, interpret, analyse and propose solutions for application. This is contextual and done with extreme care.
I am not the one going in circles here.
It’s not one of “whether it fits your circumstances or not”. It is our scholars/jurists responsibility to examine that.
I gave the example of disregarding sunrise/sunset requirements specified in the Qur’an for Muslims in northern countries. Does this mean our scholars who made this allowance are now condoning something “haram” by negating the Qur’anic requirement?
You seem to completely disallow what our great scholars have contributed over centuries by simply reducing the Qur’an to “either you believe the Qur’an to be your guide in life or you don’t.” Why the need for Islamic scholarship then?
You have not contributed to this discussion in any manner except by defaulting to responses which completely disregard all aspects of who Islamic law is formulated and the entire science of our jurisprudence. Believing in the Qur’an also includes accepting its tafsir or exegesis.
The amount of gross distortion and damage caused by Muslims who have taken portions of the Qur’an without looking at the totality or intent of it’s message stating they “believe in it” – have resulted in deaths, maimings, abuse and barbaric actions.
Your logic (contained in 2 to 8 line responses) places our Islamic jurists and scholars with their millions of volumes of work – against God Himself. Your approach suggests that almost 1,500 years of Islamic scholarly work by genius Muslim scholars as worthless as it’s simply an issue of “belief”.
The following is sourced from the Grand Mufti of Egypt:
If we take the Quranic sciences alone as an example, we find that it comprises 80 fields, according to what Suyuti (d. 911 H) has listed in his book, al-Itqan, and exegesis (tafsir) is one of the 80. If we consider exegesis alone, and examine its various kinds, we find that it comprises approximately 10 branches, under each of which there have been a multitude of works produced. The kinds include:
1. Exegesis written by scholars of hadith and transmitted reports.
2. Exegesis written by scholars of theology and creed.
3. Exegesis written by jurists and scholars of legal theory.
4. Exegesis written by grammarians and linguists.
5. Exegesis written by literati and rhetoricians.
6. Exegesis by scholars of the art of recitation.
7. Exegesis written by Sufis and ascetics.
8. Exegesis written by historians.
9. Exegesis written by social reformers.
10. Exegesis written by scientists in various fields.
11. Exegesis that combine two or more kinds mentioned above.
Such analysis has resulted in ruling concerning accommodation for marriage such as mut’ah or misyar (amongst endless other subjects concerning Muslims). It is a collaborative effort.
You also missed my point when you stated: “if you want to marry a non muslim there is no one to stop you” and then proceded to reduce our jurists and their valuable Islamic education standing.
I don’t need luck with my decisions, I need our scholars to continue their efforts to examine the changing circumstances of our communities and women in particular – who now find themselves in a situation in the west that does not have precedence in Islam and are certainly not aided by the relatively recent introduction of air travel where our men are flying thousands of miles to other countries and returning back with foreign wives. Meanwhile our women who are over age 35 are living as a minority with no access to their rights under Islam and facing all the situations noted by Zeba in her article must face.
I am asking for a responsible approach as utilitized for centuries by our great scholars – who are by far enormously better read in Islamic sciences than you and I could ever be. It is beyond your “take it or leave it” approach. I cannot orchestrate their responses – but appreciate that this issue is now beginning to be examined within the correct context. Again, there are greatly elaborate and well developed methods in Islam which exist to assist Muslims.
It’s not a matter of getting “some scholar” as you put it, to concur.
Rehaam, if you deem your reading of the Qur’an as clear, I would be interested in your response concerning the concept of “abrogation” (al-Naksh) in the Qur’an that God chose to reveal verses that supercede earlier verses in the Qur’an.
One example from the Qur’an of many abrogated verses:
Abrogated (mansukh): (2:62) “Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.”
Abrogator: (3:85) “And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.”
Timing of revelation and the historical context in which the verse was revealed is key to it’s understanding.
Not all Muslim scholars agree on what abrogation covers. From source:
Muslim scholars hold to the concept that some verses in the Qur’an abrogate other verses in the Qur’an, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating verses.
Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Qur’an may abrogate the Qur’an as well as the Sunnah and vice versa.
Some Muslim scholars hold that the Qur’an abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Moses and Jesus, but not itself.
Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all. Abrogation or repeal, has two meanings in Arabic: (1) transformation and shifting from one place to another and (2) cancellation and repeal.
In technical terms, al-Naskh means to cancel and abrogate some fixed Shari’a rulings and to replace them with new rulings and orders. al-Naskh can be in the Qur’an and the Sunnah.
Islamic scholar Al-Suyuti in his book al-Itqaan said that 21 verses in the Qur’an were abrogated, some were agreed upon, while others are not. These abrogated verses are in the following Surahs: Al-Baqarah, Al-‘Imran, An-Nisa’, Al-Ma’idah, Al-Anfal, At-Taubah, An-Nur, Al-Ahzab, Al-Mujadilah, Al-Mumtahinah and Al-Muzzammil.
Abrogation of rulings constituted a form of relief, of soothing, and cancellation of hardship.
It is stated that abrogated rulings should not be put into practice, since they were “revealed for some fixed period of time” (not eternal). For example, it is not allowed to imprison someone guilty of zina since such a ruling was abrogated. Another example is that it is not allowed for a woman whose husband has died to enter into Iddah (awaiting period) as stated in 2:240 since it is abrogated by verse 2:234.
Therefore reading of any Qur’anic verse without proper research per the above or allowances made by scholars is the reason why Muslims cannot simply lift understandings and claim it is “clear”.
Sarah, if there is a verse in the Quran that abrogates that muslim women don’t have to marry muslim men please do let me know……..I am asking for this to be from the Quran specifically..and uses the same clarity of words to allow us to marry non muslims as it prohibits us…
If not, then really this conversation is over for me because clearly we have very different ideas on this issue….
Rehaam: Firstly I was referring to your position wherein you stated: “I have the ability to read and understand (MA) and where there is clear guidance in the Quran, I’m not one to seek the opinion of men”.
If that is the case, what is your understanding of the Qur’an as it relates to abrogations – per your ability to read and understand it?
Secondly, as stated the rules pertaining to abrogation exists outside of the Qur’an as al-Naskh means to cancel and abrogate some fixed Shari’a rulings and to replace them with new rulings and orders.
Re: asking from specifics from the Qur’an – I ask you if Muslims pray 5 times a day, then why are only 3 prayers names in the Qur’an i.e. fajr, zuhr, isha?
The establishment of 5 prayers and details are actually from sources outside of the Qur’an although it is one of the pillars. One could argue that if only 3 prayers are mentioned, there is no need for more. But we do not follow this reasoning here.
The issue of Muslim women and marriage is subject to re-evaluation as many aspects of what is or is not mentioned in the Qur’an has been pursued over time and according to circumstances. This has included accommodation for in marriage specifications not mentioned in the Qur’an.
I noticed that you have not really answered anything I asked you – choosing instead to throw questions back at me without thought.
However, our scholars are beginning to examine the situation of our Muslim sisters in the west and thankfully their conversation is just beginning, as the legal environment in which Muslim women’s rights could be implemented via marriage – does not exist and the original intent of protecting women has now resulted in extreme exposure and vulnerability for them.
Islamic scholars have always gone beyond the simplistic “show me where it states . . .” (a usual, simplified, generic Muslim retort which ignores the criterion for resolutions) and are resorting to the use of analogy, ijthihad, consensus and application and context according to the times to assist us. This especially applies to the situation regarding Muslim women.
My lovely lovely Sistas’ reading all of your comments particularly from the last two renowned and highly intellectual scholars of Islamic Ummah mashaAllah, I have come to conclusion we need no men to tell us what we should be doing!! Its about time sistas, lets kick their butt. You see Islam again all prophets were men, Sexist!!! Men have to go out and earn the living and then take care of us and our children while they think we are moaning and winging endlessly and busy doing nothing, again Sexist!! They have to travel out of their homes to the mosque to pray while we get to pray inside our homes huh!!
You see we Western brought up Muslim women have done nothing wrong at all. Some people blame us to have a highly self deserving attitude, a huge ego, and adopting the ways of kuffaar. Hell, some even go as far as to say we dont have any manners and are even confused between East and West. However the reality is far from it. They give us examples of happily married women from Asia and Arab countries. but you know what we aint like being treated a slave like all those stupid women. We aint gonna be treated like baby making machines staying at home and loving our families like women have done for centuries. Poor women of these third World chaotic and pathetic countries. We have got FREEDOM! We go out and enjoy. We are nobody’s slave! We can go out and dance drink and have sex but what matters is that we do what we want! Why are we expected to act like a decent muslim girl who will take care of family and fit the traditional roles HUH!!
And as for anyone who thinks we are not valuable. Well we all are approached by hundreds of mulsim men looking to marry when we are in our 20s but they want us to stop partying! What! and Moreover for us sistas who are the most prettiest/elegant and classy women in the World (much better looking the Megan Fox!) these men look like well Star Trek voyagers haha loollz!
As for sister Sarah, I totally agree with her. Its time all those hot non Muslim men (ONLY Blonde Caucasians please) who are yearning to spend the rest of their lives with us be allowed to have their birth right! That is when these Muslim men will realize what they have lost!! Then they will realize that its not that we had our heads up our backside when we were younger and are bitter now since we aint getting any which is obviously completely lie!
Sarah, yes lets change the religion after all the prophets are men!!!! Lets start by kicking our dad’s and bro’s butts. Sisters let us unite for our rights against this filthy men!!!!!
6.114 [Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the
Book explained in detail?”
6.115 And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He
is the Hearing, the Knowing.
45:6
These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?
Rehaam: I will not so readily denounce our jurists and Islam scholars as you chose to do, as Islam accommodates their contribution (for centuries). They are the one fit to determine the application of Islam after they have taken into consideration all factors, variables, precedents or lack of precedent in certain situations. Extraction from sunnah and adaptibility.
Again, the issue of abrogation was raised as sequencing, context and historical timing will determine the meaning of the verse and what follows it. We follow daily rules in Islam which are “not” detailed in the Qur’an. They are not expounded upon in the Qur’an – such as prayers.
The Qur’an is not meant to be intrepreted by individuals. Our own Prophet (pbuh) said that. Yet Muslims will continue to do so at the expense of Islam’s intent and humanity. This is especially the case for Muslims who point to certain verses and justify the worst form of violence (as we are now seeing in the world). Yet simple-minded/ignorant Muslims continue to do so – with great damage.
Islam accommodates men – especially with regards to their sexual needs both in and “out” of marriage. Due to the situation Muslims now find themselves in re: inability to be married in Islam’s complete terms (due to finances, being a foreign worker etc), misyar marriages are permitted to avoid zina (fornication). In this case, many of the required responsibilities in marriage are exempt including financial support and living arrangements.
Our scholars looked at the greater damage caused by zina and hence, made this accommodation. Although the Qur’an clearly states what the rights and obligations within Islam are for marriage, such rights and obligations are “forfeited” as the environment in which Muslim marriages are to occur does not exist for people employing misyar. Telling them to then “suffer” or do without is unrealistic and leading to negative situations.
It is an attempt to balance good against bad (zina) due to circumstances which Muslims find themselves in.
Many of our Muslim women in western countries (certainly in Canada and the U.S.) have found themselves in unprecedented circumstances. In traditional Muslim countries unmarried, divorced or widowed women are absorbed into their families’ larger household. This accommodation for our women does not exist in the west. Those women without means (family, husband, children) are often left on their own to struggle in a society which is not set up to absorb anyone.
In the west, it is the norm to send the elderly to nursing or retirement homes. They are not always absorbed into their children’s families and live the balance of their lives in facilities/institutions surrounded by strangers. Such a situation is unheard of in Muslim societies where older parents would live with children until death.
As western society cannot be paralleled in many ways to the norm in which Muslim women are supposed to live, our scholars are beginning to consider that to accommodate Muslim women’s marriages to men of The Book (Christians, Jews) is a more humane approach than to expect women to lead lives without support, partners, children and in many cases (which I have observed in a number of Muslim women in my large North American city) – homeless and destitute.
Unfortunately, many Muslims who do not take into account the humanity expressed in the Qur’an are opting for the “let those women rot in the streets, the Qur’an is written as such” approach – per their literal and highly narrow understanding are the ones who will answer to God about such an unjust mindset against their sisters – while they themselves are not providing solutions except “let them suffer”.
Qur’an: “Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason (intellect).”
Re: “none can alter God’s words” – yet God Himself has abrogated at least 113 verses in the Qur’an.
Abrogation in classical scholarship – Muslim scholars in the classical period agreed about the principle of abrogation in the Qur’an. 11th century scholar, Abu Muhammad ‘Ali bin Ahmad bin Sa‘id Ibn Hazim, a theologian, philosopher, historian and jurist, examined the Qur’an chapter by chapter to show which verses supplanted other verses.
Classical scholars also examined the pattern in which the Prophet (pbuh) engaged in abrogation during revelation because Qur’anic laws were brief and insufficient for the needs of the huge Muslim community. Muhammad changed his rules according to the circumstances.
Al-Tabarī, Muslim scholar, author of enormous compendiums of early Islamic history and Qurʾanic exegesis, who made a distinct contribution to the consolidation of Sunni thought during the 9th century. He condensed the vast wealth of exegetical and historical erudition of the preceding generations of Muslim scholars and laid the foundations for both Qur’anic and historical sciences. His major works were the Qurʾān Commentary and the History of Prophets and Kings (Taʾrīkh al-Rusūl wa al-Mulūk) – stated the following:
“God alters what was once declared lawful into unlawful, or vice-versa; what was legally unregulated into prohibited and vice-versa.”
The following is from “Ijthihad and its Significance for Islamic Legal Interpretation” (Nazim Goolam, Dept of Juriprudence University of South Africa presented at Michigan State U., 2006 – The Future of Islamic Scholarship):
Strict/Literal Interpretation:
This literalist approach is based on a desire to discover the true intention of the Lawgiver (God) and to to deviate as little as possible from the original text. A staunch proponent of this was Imam Al-Shafi.
Purposive/Contextual Interpretation:
By the 5th century (Islamic era), Imam Al-Shafi’s theory of strict interpreation began to expand so as to yield a more “flexible approach” to interpretation by scholars. The most prominent proponent of this approach was Al-Ghazali. His writings were taken to full fruition by the great Maliki scholar Al-Shatibi.
Imam Ghazali advocates reasoning which divides the “maqasid” (purposes of the law) into the purposes of the hereafter and the world. Each of these purposes may be viewed as securing a benefit or repelling a harm. The “maqasid” should repel harm, hardship or injury.
Al-Ghazali divided worldly purposes into 4 types:
1. Preservation of nafs (life)
2. Preservation of nasl (progeny)
3. Preservation of aql (intellect)
4. Preservation of mal (wealth)
The 5 primary and fundamental purposes of Shari’a are: religion, life, intellect, progeny or lineage and wealth or property.
The interpretive approachs of the four Imams show that Islamic law does “not permit only one interpretation” in any given matter or on any particular set of facts. But rather, depending on whether a scholar adopts a strict or literal approach or a purposive or contextual approach to interpretation.
By placing our women in a situation where they cannot marry (due to foreign environment under which there is no Islamic jurisdiction) and its related harm and hardships (economically, socially, legally etc) – we are then denying her rights for life, progeny and property – due to our lack of employing intellect.
The purpose of Islam is not one of “suffering” to following the law (no accommodation – a “too bad for you, it’s the law” default) but rather finding legitimate ways to address our needs in changing circumstances by those qualified to do so.
You have made a mark and you are worth copying. Thanks sara winning the debate. None can match you.
Thanks Tata for reading my lengthy posts. I had the privilege of briefly studying with Dr. Walid Saleh (PhD – Yale) a brilliant Islamic scholar and formidable professor who taught Qur’an re: context, historicity and exegesis. Some of his writings are online for anyone who may be interested.
While that particular academic level may not be for everyone, it is important to admit that contextual understanding was always applied by our great Islamic scholars for centuries for legal accuracy. Accommodations, adjustments etc. Time sequence of abrogated verses affect other verses. The assumption that our laws were applied under an Islamic authority (which is not the case for us in the West). It is rather complex.
The often abused concept that two Muslim women are required in place of one man as witnesses, is only applicable for capital cases (murder) and not for commercial contracts for example. This was to ensure that due to social circumstance, women were not coerced into making statements in which a person’s life rested, so another woman was brought forth as well to corroborate the first testimony. It was an attempt at fairness before the law. This has been distorted by many to say a Muslim woman’s testimony is worth half of a man’s – which is not the case.
Some assertions by Muslims that they understand the Qur’an by simply reading it is resulting in flat and highly limited comprehensions re: applicability and literal distortions which is damaging and contradicting its intent. This is a recent and unfortunate development amongst Muslims.
(Quran 2.221) Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allure you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allure you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of Bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may receive admonition. ¤
Maybe this particular scholar got the interpretation of this verse wrong. Maybe we can find some other scholar that can interpret this verse in such a way, that it would actually say that it is lawful to marry unbelievers. Then we could obey and follow that scholar so that we can start “enjoying those blonde and blue eyed caucasians”, like someone earlier put it.
After all, God intends no hardship on us…
Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish concubine Rayhana bint Zayd. Another of his concubines was Maria al-Qibtiyya, a Coptic Christian who bore him a son Ibrahim. Neither of these women accepted Islam.
There is a strong difference between the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and unbelievers. The unbelievers referred to in the Qur’an were pagan who had no concept of an afterlife and found elements in Islam to be very foreign. The Books or scriptures of the Jews and Christians are referred to in the Qur’an. Prophets mentioned in the Qur’an are also from the People of the Book. The pagan Arabs, the unbelievers, fall into a separate category.
Unbelievers are separate from Jews and Christians (People of the Book):
Qur’an 5:5 – “This day (all) good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And (lawful in marriage are) chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you. . .”
Jews and Christians were given the Scriptures referred to in the Qur’an.
The word Mushrik means non-Muslims who are not from amongst the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book i.e. the Jews and the Christians), unbelievers (polytheists and pagans) who do not believe in any Prophet and Scripture.
Halil: I never stated nor implied that Muslims should be able marry unbelievers (mushrik). I always specified People of the Book (Jews and Christians). Why would anyone be asking Islamic scholars to “interpret” Islam to accommodate marriage to people who are not Ahl al-Khitab? Muslim men already have this accommodation, it was just not extended to women due to the structure of implementing family laws, under Islamic jurisdiction.
Assalamualykum..Okay….I have read many posts here…I don’t want to point any finger towards anybody…I just wanna ask one question…How many of you, among the sisters and brothers, would like to live a life in a remote area in South Asia or other poor 3rd world country, just teaching in a high school for living and while also having all the peace of mind?…
I am curious to know it because I think we as a Muslim society in the West, regardless of gender, have become far too superficial, that’s why we are facing these problems. I, of course, would love that life, but I’m sure I can’t find a Muslima, living in the West, that would agree to marry if I say her “Let’s go to this peaceful place and spend the rest of our days there just researching on our loved things!”. In fact, even my mom would not agree with me living there…lol…I’m just 26…But because I wanna get rid of this ultra-competitive, disturbingly materialistic life in the west as well as in the big cities of my original homeland, I will never find a girl as educated as I am(I did my Engineering in TUM) who will marry me.
Poligamy.
Many 35 year-old sisters are still looking for someone 36-39 (40 is too old), never married, educated, professional, good-looking, 5’10 – 6’4 tall, moderately religious.
Would you consider someone 45 years old? Why not?
Omer: It is reasonable for a 45 year old to marry a 35 year old. However, if 45 year old Muslim men hope to marry 35 year old Muslim women (10 years his junior and still of child bearing age), who will marry our 40+ year old sisters? This is the problem. Women often wish to marry within our own age group (peer) but many of our men want younger wives. Even men in their 50s want to marry women in their 30s.
Generally speaking, the current marriage crisis affects Muslim women as those past age 40 will most likely not have children and thus not given priority. Men can still become fathers. Muslim men who are established in the West (employed etc) may not have an issue with going to a majority country and returning with a wife as she does not have the responsibility of supporting her husband, children, as a man does. Muslim women fear this overseas option due to all the legal liabilities and financial issues of sponsoring a husband.
Would you consider a Muslim woman who is 45 years old, same as you? There are a good number unmarried well educated, decent women.
I have to hand it to Sarah… she’s done a remarkable job explaining and clarifying the point that Islam is a living religion and can and should adapt to current situations. Rehaam seems to be one of those people who take everything at face value, including their religion. My personal views in this matter would really be inconsequential to most people here, since ive ‘reverted’ to being a non-believer, but I do want to make this one point. Its people like Sarah who are attempting to modernize Islam, which is very urgently needed. Muslims like her and the various scholars/academics who are reconciling Islam with a modern world are the ONLY hope for Islam (or any other religion) in a world where the ‘fastest growing religion’ is actually atheism/agnosticism. The fact that Rehaam has seemed to shut up in this discussion is unfortunate, as have most others. We need more intelligent and creative thinkers like Sarah… otherwise the long-term viability and health of Islam is in serious doubt.
Thanks Foaad. Beneath virtually all of our laws is “intent”. The intent for fairness, humanity, justice etc.
Example: Muslims eat halal meat as we are to consume food that was humanely slaughtered. If it was not, we cannot eat it. This reflects mercy toward animals as we are taking their lives. This makes complete sense and is noble. However today in the West, animals are subject to the most horrific, barbaric conditions in industrial settings where meat is processed. They are stuffed into cages for their entire short life, they do not see sunlight, they are abused, they cannot walk/run. These are all well-known established practices.
With few exceptions, many Muslims do not question the immense cruelty of their meat-source and focus on whether it is simply “halal” or not. The focus is on the requirements of the slaughter and not on the barbarism the animals are subject to. Of course, halal law was developed when animals ran free (and still do in different parts of the world) and not in industrial settings. Their humane slaughter is still very important (halal) as opposed to the use of stun-guns etc that are used in commercial meat plants. Yet we do not question the source of our meat, only how it was killed.
Isn’t the intent of eating halal to promote a form of humanity? Does eating meat which is raised in a very cruel manner but killed according to technical halal requirements – still make the food halal? We should definitely eat halal but also consider the humane treatment of animals as part of the halal process.
Intent of the law versus technical application of the law. A point where many Muslims appear to be “stuck” in thoughtlessness on a number of subjects. End result: damage and injustice.
I add that there is a huge issue of Salafism and their negative influence on Muslims. They share a highly literalist approach to Islamic scriptural sources, generally focusing on the visible dimensions of Islamic references (rules and jurisprudence, fiqh) in daily life: licit or illicit behavior (halal/haram), dress codes, rituals, etc.
The following is from scholar Tariq Ramadan: “It promotes a simple black-and-white (halal-haram) understanding of Islam. Muslims, they argue, must isolate themselves from the corrupt surrounding societies, and avoid involvement in politics. This binary vision of the world (Muslims versus the others, the good versus the bad, protected religious purity versus corrupting political involvement) has shaped over the years a religious mindset based on isolation, defensiveness and sharp judgments (who is within Islam and who is a dangerous innovator, or even outside the faith).”
Many naïve young Muslims who face the overwhelming challenges of balancing Islam with living in the West, tend to adapt this way of thinking as it offers easier understanding to complex issues. Shirk (equating God with another), bidah (religious innovation) and haram (prohibited) are the scope of their concerns.
While it is not inherently wrong per se, it does not provide appropriate solutions for a changing world with Muslims in it at all. It ignores them and lays blame on anyone or anything outside of this paradigm. Issues will simply not be addressed, choosing to default back to citing situations in the first three generations of Muslims (Salaf).
Unfortunately many Muslims don’t view this as one perception of Islam, they view it as the “only” perception. Choosing to completely cast aside centuries of Islamic thought. Muslims who follow this don’t realize this, espousing “this is true Islam”. All opposing views are attacked as morally lacking and weakness by Muslims. Literalism is always highly limiting by its nature – courtesy of Abd al-Wahhab and his Wahhabi movement from 18th century (current) Saudi Arabia.
There are refutations of Abd al-Wahhab’s teachings by Muslim scholars claiming he was ill-educated and intolerant. But literalist Muslims today seem unaware and continue this distortion of Islam in ignorance. Focusing on tangibles in religion instead of the intangibles which require thought (especially for Muslims who live as minorities in the West) is an approach which is disastrous, as it is not viable. Women inevitably pay the price for much of this.
AA. A person must be realistic,not imaginative. Decisions must be according to one ‘s circumstances instead of copying others. A deed, not against shriah(islam) is correct ;if not seems so due to cultural values at the spot ,but will be proved a reality and useful ,soon in future and far ever. Islam is so easy if one has knowledge and has courage to adopt.
Clarification: Shariah is also derived from man made sources outside of the Qur’an. This involves scholars’ interpretations including consensus (Ijma) and analogical deduction (Qiyas). This clearly identifies a human portion to the development of the Law. Shariah is also dynamic and is subject to the best limitations of our great scholars (of whatever time and condition they lived in).
Muslims may fail to realize how Shariah is formulated and view it has some sort of unchanging “monolith” – which it is clearly not. It is the responsibility of qualified scholars to seek solutions or apply Islam’s intent according to circumstances. Pointing to socio-economic decisions in Sharia from a millennium ago, resolved by scholars and jurists of that time – for application in the 21st century needs a serious examination.
We do “not” challenge – in any manner – that God is one or that Muhammad (pbuh) is His prophet. As Muslims we accept this. We also recognize the human component in Shariah.
We also accept that by not examining our changing circumstances and adhering to rulings from centuries ago (by humans), we may in fact be causing harm to Muslims (especially our women) and actually contributing toward negating Islam’s intent which includes protection and fairness. This is “not” for the average person to address but must be addressed by those scholars who are well qualified in Islamic sciences and have the proper ability to analyze and discern (their great responsibility for centuries).
AA. pl don’t think what people will say. do what u can do but not against islam. live for ALLAH,die for ALLAH. decide according to ur circumstances means age, health, wealth, beauty,family, education etc , no copy of others pl. may ALLAH bless u.one should b realistic, not imaginative.
how about we follow the advice of Rasul Allah to Guardians of women: if a man approaches you for your daughter’s hand, and you are satisfied with his character and religious level, then you should accept him, or there will be great fitnah in the world.
Just two simple conditions: decent character, practice of faith.
We are complicating things. Love comes – it’s a promise from God – if we just accept what He sends us. no talk there about degrees, education, liking the same things, etc.
Keep it simple and we’d all be happier.
and for the man: Rasul Allah peace be upon him said: “A woman is married for four (reasons): her wealth, noble ancestry, beauty and religion. Choose the religious woman or you will be ruined.”
Again, i think it’s pretty clear. just one condition, one stipulation – nothing there about how many degrees she has. keep it simple fellas. if you meet a religious girl, pick her and get it over with. again, the love will come. don’t overthink it too much.
last thing: is it so bad to be sinlgle? i mean, can we not create a space in our community in which a single person can be totally fulfilled, respected, and feel contented in herself? i have friends who don’t want to get married. they are so fulfilled in their lives, especially in their life wth God. I wonder why this is so rare. it’s like we don’t even like being with the true Loved One, God and His Messenger. i know marriage is great and all, but it’s not everything. happiness really is posible without being married.
I am a simple muslim so would write simple words which everybody can understand. Overwhelming Majority of Muslim Scholars (the likes of Imam Abu Hanifa , Imam Shafi etc) declare it haram for a muslim woman to marry a non muslim. (please state if otherwise). Even if some scholars (not a single major Scholar but mostly puppets) today make it permissible; how you can be certain that the classical and respected jurists (for their piety, standard etc) were wrong and the present ones are right. Should we go for that scholar whose point of view is according to our wishes and desires. Tell me a single scholar today who would call (or could be called) himself/herself equal to Imam Abu Hanifa in caliber, standard or piety etc. If any scholar wishes to declare marriage between a muslim woman and non muslim man then he should give justification and reason beyond doubt for such fatwa.
There is the islamic law of polygamy available. In general a man is allowed to have four wives with the condition that he would treat them equally, provide them shelter, food and basic necessities of life etc. If a dear sister want to marry she can choose any muslim for being his first , second , third or 4th wife.The laws of Almighty Allah are simple and eternal. Those who try to find fault or loopholes should fear the afterlife and the hell.
I should further mention the concept of Taqwah. It is enough to guide a muslim. it simply means one should not only stay away from haram but also anything resembling it, near it, or leading towards it.
I hope this should suffice. My Allah guide All the Sisters and Brothers along the right path (Amin).
Re: “If a dear sister want to marry she can choose any muslim for being his first , second , third or 4th wife.”
NO, she can’t. Re: polygamy – may we please have suggestions that are not against the law!
Islam states Muslims are obliged to abide by the laws of the land and the country they live in, whether it is a Muslim state or Muslim countries or non-Muslim countries such as those in the west.
In the United States polygamy is an illegal practice in all 50 states. In Canada polygamy is illegal per Section 293 of the Criminal Code of Canada and bigamy is banned per Section 290.
A good percentage of Muslim women in the west are employed (in a variety of sectors) as extra income is required due to the high cost of living. They are not all professional “career” women but regular working women who must contribute to their households. If many Muslim husbands cannot support their families without assistance, how on earth are they going to support 2 or 3 or 4 wives! This is an unreal suggestion.
We don’t live in extended family homes where sons and their wives are assigned a room. We are responsible for our own homes whether owned or rented and all associated costs. There is no family/parents to cover men’s overhead expenses such as living expenses. In North America, even the most modest existence for a family costs several thousand dollars per month, especially in urban areas.
Spouses have legal rights under the law in the west and have the all important next-of-kin status. This status for a legitimate wife affords a number of critical rights and claims. Wife number 2, 3 or 4 will be shown the door under the law. They will have no say or access. They are not recognized and will be left in a terrible bind if anything happens to the husband.
Even people who are in common-law relationships do not have the same rights as legally married people. Per The Matrimonial Property Act (Canada), the provincial law which governs the division of property of married people, does not apply to common-law partners.
Re: “Overwhelming Majority of Muslim Scholars (the likes of Imam Abu Hanifa , Imam Shafi etc) declare it haram for a muslim woman to marry a non muslim.”
Our scholars wanted to ensure Muslim women had access to their rights under Islamic rule. If Muslim women married non-Muslim men, they would go and live in the husband’s religious community. That community cannot fulfill her rights. So for this reason our scholars maintained this prohibition.
Today we do not live in religious communities in the west. We live as part of the larger society and the laws are the same for everyone. We also do not live within Islamic jurisdictions that can enforce implementation of our rights.
Muslim women are entitled to protection and care according to Islam. If she stays within a Muslim jurisdiction, she is entitled to a number of rights. If she is widowed or divorced, a male family member is responsible for her. That is why males receive a higher portion of inheritance as they are to use the extra wealth in supporting females within their care. This system does not exist in non-Muslim jurisdictions.
It is a system of checks and balances, of rights and responsibilities. It is on this basis that our scholars said Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men. But this self-contained system does not exist for us in the west. As minorities within the larger culture, many Muslim sisters are unable to marry. Our racial, nationality, language differences are adding to this problem.
Many women are forced to give up having children, their own families if they cannot marry Muslim men. In the end they are left on their own after fathers die and brothers are absent. This number is growing.
– When do Muslims intend to address this problem that is severely affecting our women?
– When will they admit that rules which were meant for application under Muslim jurisdiction cannot be implemented now?
– When will they admit that our women are getting all the liabilities without any of their rights?
– When will they admit that subjecting women to rules without offering the necessary protection for participating is unfair?
– When will begin to recognize the Muslim marriage crisis in the west?
– When will legal, realistic solutions, rather than all the usual illegal ones, be suggested?
Per the Washington Post:
“Daisy Khan (who is the wife of Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf) arranged a Valentine’s Day event for Muslim singles. 15 men and 63 women showed up. The “surplus” of women is indeed an issue. Many Muslim women would say, sarcastically, that the surplus is more specific – of smart, mature, beautiful, professional (Muslim) women.”
In reply to comment of
Sarah
February 26, 2014 at 12:10 am
For Muslims the Shariah-law of Almighty Allah is of fundamental importance. I would use the words that Islam teach us to respect the law of the land and the country if it is not against the belief. But it does not mean that a muslim can not fight for his/her rights peacefully. Look how gay and lesbians group have finally forced the governments to acknowledge same sex marriages. Why can’t muslims do the same and by peaceful movements make their respective governments to acknowledge polygamy as it is allowed in Islam. There is already a landmark Judgement. The ruling by U.S. District Court Judge Clark Waddoups threw out the law’s section prohibiting “cohabitation,” saying it violates constitutional guarantees of due process and religious freedom. Muslims should fight for their rights as provided by the constitution. The law of the land can be changed. I think you are aware that the problem is not Islam but american laws which do not allow polygamy legally. It has created problems for them also. The statistics of census 2010 show 157.0 million female and 151.8 million male.. simeple arithmetic shows 4.2 million women would be unable to find husband according to USA laws.But look at the law of Allah ..Islam.. Subhanallah! it provide a complete solution to this problem in the form of allowing polygamy. Once again the superiority of Islamic laws-law of Almighty Allah are shown. The fault is with USA laws which need correction not Islam. So people like you should direct their energies to convince americans that polygamy is in their larger national interest.If gays and lesbian can force governments to recognized their irrational concept of same sex marriages why not muslim can do the same on the basis of religious freedom allowed in the USA constitution. They would certainly get allies i.e. Mormons -who also practice polygamous.
Now towards your argument of financial stability. The answer is in your own comment..consider a family of one working husband and four working wives. They would be able to pool their resources (incomes) and in the long run would have each and every chance of financial stability. Those 15 men appearing in Daisy Khan’s Valentine’s Day were enough to support 60 women. Why you want to avoid the easy and simple road of Islam to follow the road of haraam.
The work of scholars who declare the marriage of muslim women to non muslim men as haraam (a consensus) cite the following sacred verses from Quran
“O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and let them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah’s judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.” (60:10)
“And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.”(2:221)
The above two verses without doubt prohibit such marriages i.e. muslim women with non-muslim men.. just consider the word “until they believe”. it is enough for a sane and rational mind to conclude that the marriage of a muslim woman with non-muslim man is haraam according to The Holy Quran.
Now towards your argument of financial stability of a polygamous family. The answer is in your own comment..consider a family of one working husband and four working (professional class) wives. They would be able to pool their resources (incomes) and in the long run would have each and every chance of financial stability. Those 15 men appearing in Daisy Khan’s Valentine’s Day were enough to support 60 women. Why you want to avoid the easy and simple road of Islam to follow the road of haraam.
In the end I wold say that In the current circumstances their are two option availabe to a single muslim woman living in western countries
1. Enter a Polygamous relationship (if unable to find a single muslim husband) She would be ok according to shariah and islam. At most she would not get the legal status according to western laws. But would in the state of tranquility and contentment of following her religion in letter and spirit. She would have all the hopes of a beautiful Akhira.
2. Marry with a non muslim according to US etc Laws. But she would be committing adultery (Zina) for the rest of her life and her children out of such marriages would be illegitimate (Wald-uz-Zina). Such a woman would be in danger of losing her Akhira.
Any rational muslim would always go for the 1rst choice. I would also add that no muslim in the world can help a muslim woman who is bent on entering an illicit relationship with a non-muslim man at all costs.
May Allah guide you and me along the straight path. (Ameen)
Riaz: Achieving legislative change to marriage laws requires popular support by citizens. Polygamy is not likely to be accepted by the vast majority of North Americans. It took decades for gay rights to be implemented re: marriage and is defined as a monogamous relationship. The issue is no just one of multiple spouses vs one.
There are a gamut of other concerns which would have to be addressed re: insurance claims, property distribution, pension, next of kin status. The entire legal system is based on monogamy and polygamy will require changes to many other legislation regarding treatment of multiple spousal claimants. It is also a state by state issue.
Re: Mormons – polygamists are outside the mainstream Mormon church, which prohibits the practice for its 15 million members worldwide. They are also contained within Utah. Concerning Judge Waddoups’ ruling, it is subject to the Attorney General’s appeal. The likelihood of a successful appeal is high and the ruling may be struck down. The likelihood of judges across the other 49 states concurring with Waddoups – probably zero.
One cannot simply look at straight statistical numbers and determine who will or will not have a spouse. There are a number of factors to consider such as the sub age groups within the population, under aged minors, those approaching end of life and not considering marriage, those who are gay, those who may not wish to marry, those who cohabitate or are serial monogamists, those who cannot marry due to mental or physical health issues etc. It cannot be measured strictly in terms of a 1:1 ratio deeming all males and females are at marriageable age. This is quite obvious.
RE: Muslim fighting for their rights – an uphill battle. Muslims are addressing issues such as time off for prayers at work, right to wear hijab without discrimination etc. To enter into the marriage debate and asking the overwhelming majority of non-Muslims in the land to accept something culturally abnormal for them as polygamy is not going to happen. There has to be consensus.
With all the issues facing Muslims (and they are substantial), accommodation for polygamy and the arguments which will be brought forth against it will be monumental. Even the right to vote for women and African Americans took centuries to overcome. Civil rights for African Americans look the longest time to achieve due to prejudice and racism against them. Post 9/11 in certain parts of the US, Muslims are perceived to have the same footing unfortunately.
Examine what the outcome was re: attempts to establish some form of Sharia law for arbitration in Ontario. It was struck down. Following widespread condemnation of a plan that would formally allow the tenets of Sharia to be used in resolving family disputes, the Provincial Premier made the boundaries between church and state clear by banning faith-based arbitrations. Arguments were made re: 1991 Arbitration Act. But Ontario laws put a stop to religion-based settlements in matters such as child-custody disputes or inheritances.
And polygamy is to be injected into this? Think about it.
You stated: “Now towards your argument of financial stability. The answer is in your own comment..consider a family of one working husband and four working wives. They would be able to pool their resources (incomes) and in the long run would have each and every chance of financial stability.”
In 2008 in Toronto, Canada it was reported that hundreds Muslim men in polygamous marriages were receiving welfare and social benefits for each of their spouses. City and provincial officials stated that legally a welfare applicant can claim only one spouse. Other adults living in the same household can apply for welfare independently.
Ontario’s Minister of Community and Social Services investigated this issue of multiple wives are taking advantage of welfare and social benefits in Ontario (government and tax payer funded). These Muslim husbands obviously cannot afford to support their families but want all the associated privileges and were scamming the system. This is also shameful.
The anti-Muslim backlash as a result of this financial abuse was unwanted news for Muslims who are law abiding. It was all over the media.
Your statement to “one working husband and four working (professional class) wives.” Very few, if any, professional, educated Muslim women will enter a polygamous marriage. This not going to happen in North American. They are not going to share their husband with other women. Not happening and unrealistic. This approach will not solve any problems.
My suggestions:
Why don’t Muslims like you advise our Muslim men to marry Muslim women instead of non-Muslims (a common practice now as it is halal). That would be a good start. Why don’t you advise Muslim parents not to seek wives for their sons from “back home” instead of choosing a wife locally in North America. Why don’t you tell them that marriages should not be used to satisfy the extended family’s immigration needs.
Why don’t you tell Muslim men who are mature in age to not seek much younger wives and to marry Muslim women in their own age group. 40 year olds want wives age 20-25. 50 year olds want age 30. Tell them that Muslim women over age 35 can also be suitable wives. Tell them not to spend years with non-Muslim girlfriends, enjoying themselves until they are well into their 30s and then seek a virginal young Muslim woman – 15-20 years younger – to start a family. Advise them to marry within their own age group, a peer. This would be a tremendous help to our Muslim sisters.
Why don’t you focus on advising Muslim men to consider marrying divorced Muslim women (some who are quite young with their lives ahead of them) and not to dismiss such women as potential spouses.
Why not address issues within our own community, tell our men and their parents to reconsider their approach toward Muslim women here – before taking up something as grandiose and unrealistic as a Constitutional challenge – which will most likely not result in any progress or even desired but most Muslims re: polygamy.
Re: your comment: “Why you want to avoid the easy and simple road of Islam to follow the road of haram” (i.e. polygamy). My suggestions above have directly addressed this in the easiest and most simple manner – speak to the men in our community who espouse negative “options” which are detrimental to our women first and challenge their attitudes about wife selection. . . not legislators.
RE: financial stability by pooling resources in a polygamous marriage – a Muslim woman is not financially responsible for her husband’s other wives. In fact, she has no financial obligation to him and can keep her own wealth. A polygamous marriage is not based on women “pooling” their resources. There is no Islamic requirement for this financial application.
Should potential wives fill out income and expense statements for themselves before being inducted into such marriages? How should income disparity between wives be viewed? Why should 1, 2 or 3 wives be out working if another wife does not have any employable skills or cannot find work? Who is responsible for her financial status? What if an apparently “dormant” STD or other related health issue rears its ugly head and is transmitted to other wives? What if the husband cannot afford to maintain all the children that may result from multiple wives? It could be dozens of kids. What if one wife has substantially more children than another? How is the cost for their care to be divided per financial contribution?
There is no financial stability in this, it fact it is heading for a massive disaster with women and children as the losers.
Re: Woman losing her Akhira (the hereafter) – “She would have all the hopes of a beautiful Akhira” (via polygamy). Marry a non-Muslim: “Such a woman would be in danger of losing her Akhira”.
A Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman (with limitations), can marry multiple women, can have sexual relations with women not his wife (captives, slaves, concubines, those whom his “right hand possesses”) with no limitation to the number of females for sex – i.e. “inferior” status vs free women, legitimately have children as a result of such (unmarried) unions and “none” of this will negatively affect his status in the Akhira – as it is all halal.
If a Muslim woman marries a non-Muslim, has more than one spouse or sexual partner, has sex with anyone she is not married to, has children from marriage to non-Muslims deemed illegitimate – this will negatively affect her status in the Akhira – as it is all haram.
Men’s souls are saved, but women’s souls are condemned – for the same actions.
Clarification – from a legal analysis of Utah polygamy ruling:
Judge Waddoups (US District Court in Utah) ruled that part of the state’s law prohibiting “cohabitation” – the language used in the law to restrict polygamous relationships – violates the First Amendment guarantee of free exercise of religion, as well as Constitutional due process.
The main point of this decision was NOT to move closer to making plural marriages equal to traditional two person legally defined relationships. Rather, it reinforces the “implicit zone of privacy” that has been accepted as part of US Constitutional rights, so whatever a group of people choose to willingly engage in shall not be questioned by any Government for the actions themselves.
What this decision confirms (still subject to Appeal) is that multiple individuals of any combination of genders may engage in consensual activities, and if they want to call it marriage they may do so, but that this does NOT confer ANY of the rights of marriage on such groups.
In 2007 the conviction of Warren Jeffs (polygamist) in Utah shows that existing laws defining rape, both statutory and otherwise, are still in effect, as Jeffs was not convicted on this now modified law, but on statutory rape because one of his “wives” was a minor (teenager).
He was also charged for arranging marriages of under age teenaged girls to men age 19 and older. He is now serving a 100 year prison sentence – as such marriages are criminal and constitute serious sex crimes.
Sarah you say:
‘Men’s souls are saved, but women’s souls are condemned – for the same actions’.
That’s right they are….you don’t like it leave the religion – there is no law that will supercede Allah law for the vast majority of muslims – whether you live or die as an unmarried person.
You will always have your fringe ‘Imams’ who will sell their souls for social approval and recognition…if you round enough of them up – maybe you will no longer feel the need to gain approval and convince muslims that what our Maker has said is wrong, He made a mistake …..and that you have found a better solution.
Well that’s fantastic that you have found a solution – but that is your solution – Islam does not need to be corrected, or your approval or your judgement – the rules for men and women are different – take it or leave it – or question Allah directly yourself….but get over the fact that Allah is wrong and that you are right…you are not right – and you will never be right. A muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non muslim and NEVER will. That is the law – and being muslim Sarah is following the Quran not your additions to the Quran.
So if you want to marry a non muslim do so – who cares – but try not to convince muslims that you are superior in knowledge than Allah Himself. Youre not. Neither try to convince yourself that because you feel hard done by you have the right to change Allahs law….
Rehaam: Before you continue with how Allah is one your side as a supporter of polygamy, please explain to me how you suggest legally establishing polygamy in the west? I would also like to hear how Muslim women are to be protected in the event of marriage breakdowns or other mishaps under this system. Discuss the issues and liabilities. Go ahead.
Rehaam: you stated “you don’t like it leave the religion” – thank you so much for promoting apostasy to a fellow Muslim woman.
Why didn’t I think of such an quick solution? Wow, here I’ve spent years wasting my time addressing issues which face Muslims. I should just quit. Any time there is any disagreement, one should just quit.
Don’t worry, with Muslims being unable to address our challenges as minorities – you will soon see the exodus and many of them will leave the religion, it won’t be too long before a substantial portion of the next generation of Muslims will turn secular. Now go ahead and blame them for being so worthless and wrong – rather than admit that Muslims are in an extremely weak position to address anything except the usual “take it or leave it” stance. Because when they do try to address it, they are met with responses such as yours.
When Muslims start leaving (many already have) we shouldn’t be surprised. But of course, they are no bother to a believer such as yourself. “Who cares” about them (your words) – just as long as we solid Muslims are correct with ticket in hand for jannat. I’m sure it feels good to be such a great Muslim – from the “who cares” school of thought – a generous, thoughtful, inclusive, inviting, kind, compassionate approach indeed (not).
unless, you think your Allah of course….is that what you think Sarah?
Okay Rehaam – you suppose that I think I am Allah.
Let the readers out there digest your ignorant words and conclude what they will. I will not respond to you unless there is a chutney jar out there you really want to be inside of. I already consider that mince meat sealed and packaged but will spare you the process.
Personal attacks are always favored by those who have no reasonable response to rebut statements made. But that would involve thought instead of the usual “get out if you don’t like it”. I’ve read your responses before. I never once stated that you are lacking as a Muslim although you espouse highly literalist views – as you have done to me.
My fate is for Allah alone to determine – and not for you to comment on – under any circumstances.
I have more important things to do such as assist Muslim women who are seeking legal recourse from husbands, who lack shelter due to insufficient funds, who are in serious trouble due to lack of Muslim social services. They and I don’t live in the perfect Muslim fantasy world where all needs are taken care of based on theory without the application. We just face realities without the assistance of the great Islamic structures that should be in place, but isn’t.
My asking for solutions does not equated to me thinking the Qur’an is “wrong” – a stupid and ridiculous inference made by you. I know where you stand Rehaam and clearly you are not on my footing by any means.
My response to you disregards what other readers think, your culinary skills or how wonderful you are in helping vulnerable women or the perfect Muslim fantasy. I didn’t say you were a non muslim or make any personal attacks. Im simply here to correct your mistaken belief that anyone has any right to make halal what Allah has made haram.
Im going to repeat this sentance a few times because you keep implicating that muslim women marrying muslim men only is a man made law which can be changed – of course we both know very well that you know this is a Quranic prohibition. So this is what I will writing repeatedly THIS IS NOT A MAN MADE LAW BUT A QURANIC, ALLAH’s LAW
You base your argumenets on cultural issues, mysoginist and unislamic practices to justify how men abuse the law – the religion and therefore women should also. Every religion is manipulated to meet ends and that is what you are doing.
You say:
‘ our scholars said Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men’.
1. THIS IS NOT A MAN MADE LAW BUT A QURANIC, ALLAH’s LAW
You say:
Muslim men already have this accommodation (of marry a woman of the book) , it was just not extended to women due to the structure of implementing family laws, under Islamic jurisdiction.’
2. THIS IS NOT A MAN MADE LAW BUT A QURANIC, ALLAH’s LAW
You say:
‘Our scholars wanted to ensure Muslim women had access to their rights under Islamic rule. If Muslim women married non-Muslim men, they would go and live in the husband’s religious community. That community cannot fulfill her rights. So for this reason our scholars maintained this prohibition…’
3. THIS IS NOT A MAN MADE LAW BUT A QURANIC, ALLAH’s LAW
You say:
‘We just face realities without the assistance of the great Islamic structures that should be in place, but isn’t’.
For those who see the Quran with faith and belief that law is their reality –
You say:
We also accept that by not examining our changing circumstances and adhering to rulings from centuries ago (by humans), we may in fact be causing harm to Muslims (especially our women) and actually contributing toward negating Islam’s intent which includes protection and fairness’.
4. THIS IS NOT A MAN MADE LAW BUT A QURANIC, ALLAH’s LAW
Last point, for you Sarah…re your comment: “Daisy Khan (who is the wife of Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf) arranged a Valentine’s Day event for Muslim singles. 15 men and 63 women showed up. The “surplus” of women is indeed an issue. Many Muslim women would say, sarcastically, that the surplus is more specific – of smart, mature, beautiful, professional (Muslim) women.”
And? How is this relevant?
Regardless of how bitter, angry or despondant a woman might feel at her loss or being unfairly treated by muslim men because they no longer always act like muslim men and therefore she pays the price for being a muslim woman and she might be right to feel that way – never does that give her or anyone else the right to argue that Allahs law ought to be changed.
And you have choices there are plenty muslim men in the world – perhaps they will not be to your specific liking but they will be more to Allahs liking then a non muslim…..if you have decided that you wont make compromise then do not think you can compromise Allah law.
Just face the music with some grace will you….
Rehaam: You hold a very literalist understanding. I don’t.
I am still waiting for you to address the issue of polygamy and it’s application in the west as you support it. What is your response?
Rehaam: You stated “And you have choices there are plenty muslim men in the world – perhaps they will not be to your specific liking but they will be more to Allahs liking then a non muslim”
As a divorced Muslim woman – how many of these “plenty” Muslim men wanted to marry me as a divorcee? How many Rehaam?
As I approached 40 years of age – how many of these “plenty” Muslim men wanted to marry me? How many Rehaam?
Not to my specific liking – such as a man being gainfully employed or under 70 years of age?
“Plenty” of Muslim men who may not be to my “specific liking” – excuse me, one should marry someone they have some liking for – for starters. Perhaps that is why the divorce rate for Muslims is so high in North America – foolishly entering into marriages without thought.
“More to Allah’s liking” – you mean because the man had Muslim parents so he is now labeled Muslim? Like that Rehaam? That he passed through a Muslim woman’s womb and is now to God’s “liking” and preference – like that Rehaam?
“Plenty” of Muslim men in the world – You mean the ones from other countries who have no means of supporting themselves once they get off the plane here? Like that? The ones who want green cards and immigration. The ones that I will be saddled financially to support to please God – like that Rehaam?
“Plenty” of Muslim men – like the one’s whose parents wanted daughter-in-laws from their majority countries and if I didn’t met their cultural and linguistic criteria (I am not from a majority country) that’s too bad for me – like that Rehaam?
And as a Muslim woman past age 40 and older – “Plenty” of Muslim men – really Rehaam?????
‘You hold a very literalist understanding. I don’t’.
what you understand is irrelevant; the reason being that Allah has literally said in his book the Quran (we are bound to follow or at least agree with in order to to be muslim and not change it for our own means) that a muslim woman can only marry a muslim man. That is fact written in black and white, literally – and no scholar or opinion or social dynamic can change that.
With regards to polygamy – that is also mentioned in the Quran is it not?
It takes faith to accept law even if you don’t like it, yes really Sarah…really, when it comes down to it that’s what faith is.
Rehaam: “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
THIS IS NOT A MAN MADE LAW BUT A QURANIC, ALLAH’s LAW.
Just curious, what is your tally of how many unbelievers you have fought near you? How about for this week, in your neighborhood? This ayat orders you to fight. When do you intend to do so? Should we alert the authorities that you are coming? Perhaps the FBI, RCMP or Scotland Yard? When do you intend to follow this law? Please don’t disappoint us and say you haven’t been involved in any sword fights yet. We wouldn’t want you to go against God’s law, would we?
Rehaam: Yes polygamy is mentioned in the Qur’an. Therefore, how do you propose to establish it in the west? I am still waiting for your response. What is it besides its allowed?
Sarah, my aim is not to explain the rulings of the Quran it is to express that they cannot be changed…..how many parts of the Quran will you propose to change…..because they don’t fit your life style?
Rehaam: You stated “Sarah, my aim is not to explain the rulings of the Quran it is to express that they cannot be changed…..how many parts of the Quran will you propose to change…..because they don’t fit your life style?”
You don’t seem to be able to explain anything. This seems to be always your quick out for all your lack of responses. You remind me of Christians who say their blind faith in Jesus is enough to save their souls and go to heaven. They too cannot explain anything.
Muslims had better begin to address the situations Muslim women face as minorities. If Qur’anic laws place so much liability on women here in the west, without the corresponding support and rights we are entitled to, serious damage occurs. Muslim such as yourself point to our issues and say they are “cultural or social” and therefore should be somehow ignored.
What they fail to realize is that our Prophet (pbuh) directly addressed cultural or social problems – especially as they pertained to women. He did not turn his back on women as many Muslims today feel it is alright to do – citing it is “their personal problem” and Muslims such as yourself will ensure the text is stricdtly adhered to instead of its intent.
Many of the legal injunctions of the Qur’an incorporate pre-Islamic tribal customs. This circumstance helps to explain why so much of Sharia is customary (Urf). The immediate environment and culture was taken into account. Laws pertaining to women refer, for example, divorced women being taken back into her tribe or family. They re-assume responsibility for her. This is very specific and tribal in nature. We don’t have this structure for protection in the west. So Muslims say it is now the woman’s problem. Tough luck, we won’t address it.
You further stated to me: “My response to you disregards. . . how wonderful you are in helping vulnerable women. . .” Again what you don’t understand is that Muslims such as me and many others.,do our best to help vulnerable Muslim women due to situations they are in – per attitudes such as yours. Muslims such as you are the creators of these problems. You enforce rules on our women but do not provide “any” solutions when they lead to very real problems.
You and your ilk promote polygamy but fail to realize the extreme exposure it causes many Muslim women. They face direct and terrible consequences in the west. Per western reports that failure to register a marriage (as in polygamy) found women placed at a gross disadvantage when faced with a husband and in-laws who deliberately avoid registering the marriage in order to prevent wives from claiming her legal rights to financial support if the marriage should fail.
Rehaam, what are you doing to help such women? At least I am trying to help clean up the mess made by Muslims such as you who tell women that its okay to put themselves in horrible situations re: marriage without providing the corresponding rights. We face realities while you quote literalists understandings – lacking any understanding yourself to explain anything. You miss the spirit and intent of Islam.
Qur’an 5:6: “This day all innately good things are lawful for you…Lawful to you are the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you. . . .” (i.e. Jews and Christians).
What would your response be Rehaam if someone negated this non-man made law of Allah? What if someone said Allah allows this but I will not? What if such as person said Muslim men cannot marry such women? What if such a person actually negated the text? What would you say about such a person?
Following your logic you may: “correct (such a) mistaken belief that anyone has any right to make halal what Allah has made haram” or vice versa. If that is the case, then please address your protest to Hazrat Umar – because he did just that. He made haram what Allah made halal.
He forbade Muslim men from marry non-Muslim women as such marriages were damaging to Muslim women. Umar saw realized this law for men (due to circumstance of Muslim men in non-Muslim lands) was contradicting the needs of Muslim women. He saw the “intent” of the law first (Islam states to protect women) and placed a prohibition on what is halal – in order to protect women.
Muslims such as you will place women in the worst positions, with a “who cares” attitude and ignore Islam’s intent. Muslims such as you cannot understand this as circumstances, context, damage to women vs intent to protect – all go down the drain. Then you can’t even explain anything.
Per Islamic scholar Tariq Ramadan concerning Muslim women:
“The issue of women is among those most widely affected by literalist readings of the Qur’an and of Prophetic traditions.
Neglecting the fact that the Revelation took place in a given context and that its transmission over a period of 23 years determines an orientation as to divine pedagogy, literalist readings freeze the text out of its context, of its internal progression, and of the ends of the global message.
They proceed by “reduction” and sometimes manage to justify interpretations that clearly contradict the overall message in its historical evolution or the model of behavior set by the Prophet of Islam. Beyond unjustified practices (such as physical violence as already mentioned), reformist and literalist interpretations differ in their very conception of women, and of their identity and autonomy.
Literalist interpretations integrate the patriarchal context of the time without any critical distance and associate women’s presence and role to their relation to men, while the reformist approach reaches out beyond the historical context to extract fundamental objectives as to women’s identity and their status as autonomous beings.”
Go back to your literalist understanding Rehaam (because that is exactly what you have, a limited Salafist perspective). I and others will continue to do our best to clean up messes promoted by Muslim such as you. Keep up your work of completely being unable to explain, contribute, help, offer solutions – at all.
Perhaps Muslims such as I believe in maintaining women’s dignity, rights, safety, non-exploitation by husbands or in-laws etc. All the so called “social problems” that our Prophet (pbuh) addressed yet you chose to sweep under the rug mistakenly thinking God favors your highly irresponsible and thoughtless approach to fellow Muslims by completely disregarding intent of the law over its letter. Keep it up and stupidly continue to think it is a matter of “lifestyle” as you put it.
Rehaam: you stated “unless, you think your Allah of course….is that what you think Sarah?
You have now been formally nominated for the “Stupidest Comment of the Year” award. A few more similar ones and we will just proclaim you a such.
Sarah, we are not in competition of who does more for muslim women…you raised how wonderful you are I personally don’t really care….
You say:
‘You don’t seem to be able to explain anything’
I have – Ive told you the law, you can read, read it for yourself….but you have so many what ifs, what if we could change it, what if we could marry who we want, woudnt life me so wonderful and so on and on…and with all due respect, I follow Allah and His book not what Hazret Umar said or did, not when it contradicts the Quran.
Sarah, (and apologies I didnt read ALLLLL of your message….but I got the gist) you say
‘I and others will continue to do our best to clean up messes promoted by Muslim such as you. Keep up your work of completely being unable to explain, contribute, help, offer solutions – at all’.
And your proposition is to make halal what Allah has made haram? What mess are you talking about? All I’m advocating is following Allahs word – The one laid out in the Quran ordered by Allah – is that the mess you are referring to – that you feel the need to clean up, what Allah has said?
.and re the literal meaning – somethings are written plainly to be understood plainly- the Quran was written for everyone Sarah …yes, some of the Quran requires further knowledge but on the whole it is written for the individual to read and understand so – Sarah read it – don’t run to your scholors, looking for faith – faith is tested in sacrifice…Abraham (PBUH) didnt look here and their for interpretation of a dream he knew what he had to do and did it…based on a dream he was prepared to make the sacrifice – you see it in black and white and still look for interpretation….where is your sacrifice?
Rehaam: You cannot explain anything about anything – yet you are asking me what my “where is your sacrifice”
I’ll answer that. I’ve spent the bulk of my adult life unmarried. I was divorced quite young and could not remarry due to that stigma created by Muslims. After age 35 it became nearly impossible. I didn’t fit the nationality requirements, language or cultural requirements of many of the majority Muslims in my area. It was the parents who were usually dictating this. As a Muslim woman, I did not marry a non-Muslim although I had a number of chances to. I was constantly reminded that it is haram.
After age 40, no chance of marrying a Muslim man. I did not remarry but considered what Islam said about protecting women and the social order required for that. Decades have passed and I am now in my 50s with no family of my own, no children. Fortunately I have substantial financial resources and don’t need to worry about that. However, due to my experiences, I have a concern for other Muslim women in vulnerable situations, with little education or money and what happens to them in a large urban, western city.
My sacrifice – I would say two and a half decades straight with no spouse or children – as a Muslim woman. No family nor will I ever get one now. I gave that up to maintain God’s word because apparently that is what Islam demands.
With Muslim women around me in similar situations, similar age group, but without financial footing, fathers dead, families with little net worth or property and no hope of getting married to Muslim men, especially as a minority here within the overwhelming non-Muslim culture – are in serious trouble without any support. They are forbidden to marry from outside of a group, where there is no one to marry – especially more mature women.
There is also the serious issue of women married in polygamous situations, or to accommodate immigration, badly arranged marriages where women are “thrown out” if all does not go well with husbands or in-laws. Polygamy has the least legal protection as women as wives are simply not recognized. There is no documentation to begin with. Such women are frightened.
When this serious issue of women’s lives in such circumstances are raised with scholars, who are in a position to consider all of this (i.e. women living without proper Islamic socio-economic-legal recourse) we are told to shut up and stop our pursuit of some “lifestyle” (what?) and to stop defying God’s word.
“Just have faith” and be alone with no support. No money, your problem. No home, your problem sister. We need to stick to God’s law but none of us will lift a finger to help. This attitude is one of the highest levels of immorality by Muslims.
The Islamic intent of protecting women gone (the Qur’an provides great care for women about this but Muslims cannot implement it) – as no one wants to address this and continue to place the mounting burden on women as usual telling them God is happy to see them alone for the rest of their lives. All concept of context, environment, circumstance, lack of Islamic legal implementation etc all ignored – just stick to the “word” regardless of damage.
In our demanding urban cities, the stress of the environment is very different from those in majority countries. Women unable to marry or make a life.
I hope I answered your “sacrifice” question.
Rehaam: you stated “The Prophet (pbuh) said: “One who interprets the Qur’an according to personal opinion makes his place in fire (Hell).”
Well said Sarah…seems like your getting the message…..finally….”
No, as usually you fail to understand Rehaam. I never said “I” interpreted the Qur’an, that is for qualified scholars who are well versed in the Qur’anic sciences to do so. You are the one who is stating you know what the Qur’an says. It is you who doesn’t get the message.
I have always stated that this issue of marriage must be escalated to scholars. You just don’t get it.
Rehaam: you stated “Abraham (PBUH) didnt look here and their for interpretation of a dream he knew what he had to do and did it…based on a dream he was prepared to make the sacrifice – you see it in black and white and still look for interpretation….where is your sacrifice?”
I would never dare to compare myself remotely with Prophet Abraham (pbuh) as your silly and ridiculous comparison suggests – Abraham was prepared to lose his son for God.
I also lost a son as he was never born – due to restrictions on Muslim women and marriage. I had to prepare and accept the loss of a potential son (or daughter) to stick to “God’s word”. No spouse, therefore no children. So in my own small, humble, non-Prophetic stature way – I knew what I had to do also and did.
It must be nice Rehaam to keep doling out inane questions, when you yourself has no answers for anything.
‘Of course I know that this verse is only applicable during war. But Rehaam believes in quoting everything literally. I was making that point’.
Whats your point Sarah – that the the law of marrying a muslim man for a muslim woman is only applicable when there are muslim men living in your locality?? Is that your point….?
Parts of the Quran need to be taken literally….who are Mehram, whether we can eat pork or not, inheritance rights, whether we can take interest or not, who we can marry and not….
We can do what we want – we have free will and as humans we are sinners – such is our nature but we cannot justify our wrongdoing by altering the Quran…..
“and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89).”
The ruling on who we can marry is explained clearly….don’t try to muddy it…
In response to Sarah’s comment!
RE“Should potential wives fill out income and expense statements for themselves before being inducted into such marriages? How should income disparity between wives be viewed? Why should 1, 2 or 3 wives be out working if another wife does not have any employable skills or cannot find work? Who is responsible for her financial status? What if an apparently “dormant” STD or other related health issue rears its ugly head and is transmitted to other wives? What if the husband cannot afford to maintain all the children that may result from multiple wives? It could be dozens of kids. What if one wife has substantially more children than another? How is the cost for their care to be divided per financial contribution?
There is no financial stability in this, it fact it is heading for a massive disaster with women and children as the losers.”
I was just suggesting a possibility. Such a family can work the problems you pointed out on their own according to their own circumstance. If one wife do not have any employable skills, she can voluntarily take the household work or better she can learn skills in 3 month, 6 month or longer courses. The health issue can arise even in a monogamous marriage i.e. the wife can transfer aids to the husband and vice versa.. so should all the marriages be disallowed following your reasoning. Sorry to say but you have not raised a single insoluble problem concerning polygamous marriage.
RE: “One cannot simply look at straight statistical numbers and determine who will or will not have a spouse. There are a number of factors to consider such as the sub age groups within the population, under aged minors, those approaching end of life and not considering marriage, those who are gay, those who may not wish to marry, those who cohabitate or are serial monogamists, those who cannot marry due to mental or physical health issues etc. It cannot be measured strictly in terms of a 1:1 ratio deeming all males and females are at marriageable age. This is quite obvious.”
Let me help you to do simple arithmetic. According to the statistics of census 2010, there are 157.0 million female and 151.8 million male.. means 4.2 million women would be unable to find husband according to USA laws. if there are gays then there are lesbians, if there are men who may not marry then there would also be women who would not marry and so on ..no matter what reasoning you may follow you would have to subtract on both sides. the net result would always be 4.2 million husbandless women according to USA laws. you can calculate on a paper if you want. let us subtract 1 million women for your satisfaction still 3.2 million would be without husbands according to the laws of USA. What a justice! According to USA laws there is no solution for these women but in Islam there is!.
RE: “In 2008 in Toronto, Canada it was reported that hundreds Muslim men in polygamous marriages were receiving welfare and social benefits for each of their spouses. City and provincial officials stated that legally a welfare applicant can claim only one spouse. Other adults living in the same household can apply for welfare independently.
Ontario’s Minister of Community and Social Services investigated this issue of multiple wives are taking advantage of welfare and social benefits in Ontario (government and tax payer funded). These Muslim husbands obviously cannot afford to support their families but want all the associated privileges and were scamming the system. This is also shameful.
The anti-Muslim backlash as a result of this financial abuse was unwanted news for Muslims who are law abiding. It was all over the media.”
According to Canada’s 2011 National Household Survey, there were 1,053,945 Muslims in Canada. you picked out the case of only a few hundred muslims who were in bad economic condition. There are thousands of muslim doctors, engineers, accountants and other professionals etc. There are millions of muslims in USA.. If only a small percentage of these well established muslims decide to marry 2nd time (not four just two wives).., you would have no problem of surplus muslim women.
RE:” Why not address issues within our own community, tell our men and their parents to reconsider their approach toward Muslim women here.“
There is a need to change the mindset. I can’ disagree with you in this respect.This mindset may take a long time to change. Perhaps it would be better in 2nd or 3rd generation muslims in western countries. In short term polygamy can prove helpful.
RE:”Your statement to “one working husband and four working (professional class) wives.” Very few, if any, professional, educated Muslim women will enter a polygamous marriage. This not going to happen in North American. They are not going to share their husband with other women. Not happening and unrealistic. This approach will not solve any problems.”
Polygamy can not be forced on someone. If a professional educated Muslim woman don’t want it.I respect her decision. But for those who consider it. they can do this and there would be no financial problem because a professional woman do not need financial support from her husband rather she would be able to financially support her husband.
RE:”Achieving legislative change to marriage laws requires popular support by citizens. Polygamy is not likely to be accepted by the vast majority of North Americans. It took decades for gay rights to be implemented re: marriage and is defined as a monogamous relationship. The issue is no just one of multiple spouses vs one.
There are a gamut of other concerns which would have to be addressed re: insurance claims, property distribution, pension, next of kin status. The entire legal system is based on monogamy and polygamy will require changes to many other legislation regarding treatment of multiple spousal claimants. It is also a state by state issue.”
There is already such an example in India where muslims are governed by separate Islamic family laws why not this can be done in USA and Canada etc.If muslims follow the religion in letter and spirit and according to the constitution, they should be allowed to do so. We don’t want the majority of Americans to accept polygamy but to allow it to groups whose religion allow it i.e. muslims. The decision can be implemented by a court on the basis of relevant constitution acts or by government. It may prove easier than you think.
Re:Concerning Judge Waddoups’ ruling, it is subject to the Attorney General’s appeal. The likelihood of a successful appeal is high and the ruling may be struck down. The likelihood of judges across the other 49 states concurring with Waddoups – probably zero.
I think Judge Waddoups ruling is based on the relevant portion (religious freedom) of constitution and the constitution can not be struck down.
RE: financial stability by pooling resources in a polygamous marriage – a Muslim woman is not financially responsible for her husband’s other wives. In fact, she has no financial obligation to him and can keep her own wealth. A polygamous marriage is not based on women “pooling” their resources. There is no Islamic requirement for this financial application.
If a muslim woman wish/want to help her husband financially no Islamic law stop her from doing so. Also a muslim woman can continue her profession even after marriage. If you assume that after marriage all of them would sit in home and stop their work then it is a wrong supposition.
RE: “A Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman (with limitations), can marry multiple women, can have sexual relations with women not his wife (captives, slaves, concubines, those whom his “right hand possesses”) with no limitation to the number of females for sex – i.e. “inferior” status vs free women, legitimately have children as a result of such (unmarried) unions and “none” of this will negatively affect his status in the Akhira – as it is all halal.
If a Muslim woman marries a non-Muslim, has more than one spouse or sexual partner, has sex with anyone she is not married to, has children from marriage to non-Muslims deemed illegitimate – this will negatively affect her status in the Akhira – as it is all haram.
Men’s souls are saved, but women’s souls are condemned – for the same actions.”
Islam was not revealed in a vacuum. There was slavery and all kinds of evil so there are verses to address and regulate those issues. Today there are no captives and slaves. A muslim may/can have sexual relation with only and only his wife and vice versa. Both men and women are completely prohibited having sexual relationships out of wedlock. The punishment is the same for both. You should read this portion of your comment yourself. It does not make any sense.
RE:” Muslim fighting for their rights – an uphill battle. Muslims are addressing issues such as time off for prayers at work, right to wear hijab without discrimination etc. To enter into the marriage debate and asking the overwhelming majority of non-Muslims in the land to accept something culturally abnormal for them as polygamy is not going to happen. There has to be consensus.
With all the issues facing Muslims (and they are substantial), accommodation for polygamy and the arguments which will be brought forth against it will be monumental. Even the right to vote for women and African Americans took centuries to overcome. Civil rights for African Americans look the longest time to achieve due to prejudice and racism against them. Post 9/11 in certain parts of the US, Muslims are perceived to have the same footing unfortunately.
Examine what the outcome was re: attempts to establish some form of Sharia law for arbitration in Ontario. It was struck down. Following widespread condemnation of a plan that would formally allow the tenets of Sharia to be used in resolving family disputes, the Provincial Premier made the boundaries between church and state clear by banning faith-based arbitrations. Arguments were made re: 1991 Arbitration Act. But Ontario laws put a stop to religion-based settlements in matters such as child-custody disputes or inheritances.
And polygamy is to be injected into this? Think about it.”
If you want to live in USA Canda etc and want to raise your coming generation as muslim then you have to do work to have a better future for them. So did the black of the past who made a better environment for the blacks of today. If you can’t do this then perhaps you should return to your homeland.
RE: “In 2007 the conviction of Warren Jeffs (polygamist) in Utah shows that existing laws defining rape, both statutory and otherwise, are still in effect, as Jeffs was not convicted on this now modified law, but on statutory rape because one of his “wives” was a minor (teenager).
He was also charged for arranging marriages of under age teenaged girls to men age 19 and older. He is now serving a 100 year prison sentence – as such marriages are criminal and constitute serious sex crimes.”
I just recall “Saint Valentine”. He was also put into jail for arranging marriages. According to USA laws a teenage girl may have sex with as many people as possible and she may get pregnant but she can’t marry with honor according to western laws. You these laws..I call these jokes. Subhanallah! Islam is natural- the moment a girl reach puberty she is deemed fit to be married as per Islam.
In response to Sarah’s comment!
RE“Should potential wives fill out income and expense statements for themselves before being inducted into such marriages? How should income disparity between wives be viewed? Why should 1, 2 or 3 wives be out working if another wife does not have any employable skills or cannot find work? Who is responsible for her financial status? What if an apparently “dormant” STD or other related health issue rears its ugly head and is transmitted to other wives? What if the husband cannot afford to maintain all the children that may result from multiple wives? It could be dozens of kids. What if one wife has substantially more children than another? How is the cost for their care to be divided per financial contribution?
There is no financial stability in this, it fact it is heading for a massive disaster with women and children as the losers.”
I was just suggesting a possibility. Such a family can work the problems you pointed out on their own according to their own circumstance. If one wife do not have any employable skills, she can voluntarily take the household work or better she can learn skills in 3 month, 6 month or longer courses. The health issue can arise even in a monogamous marriage i.e. the wife can transfer aids to the husband and vice versa.. so should all the marriages be disallowed following your reasoning. Sorry to say but you have not raised a single insoluble problem concerning polygamous marriage.
RE: “One cannot simply look at straight statistical numbers and determine who will or will not have a spouse. There are a number of factors to consider such as the sub age groups within the population, under aged minors, those approaching end of life and not considering marriage, those who are gay, those who may not wish to marry, those who cohabitate or are serial monogamists, those who cannot marry due to mental or physical health issues etc. It cannot be measured strictly in terms of a 1:1 ratio deeming all males and females are at marriageable age. This is quite obvious.”
Let me help you to do simple arithmetic. According to the statistics of census 2010, there are 157.0 million female and 151.8 million male.. means 4.2 million women would be unable to find husband according to USA laws. if there are gays then there are lesbians, if there are men who may not marry then there would also be women who would not marry and so on ..no matter what reasoning you may follow you would have to subtract on both sides. the net result would always be 4.2 million husband less women according to USA laws. you can calculate on a paper if you want. let us subtract 1 million women for your satisfaction still 3.2 million would be without husbands according to the laws of USA. What a justice! According to USA laws there is no solution for these women but in Islam there is!.
RE: “In 2008 in Toronto, Canada it was reported that hundreds Muslim men in polygamous marriages were receiving welfare and social benefits for each of their spouses. City and provincial officials stated that legally a welfare applicant can claim only one spouse. Other adults living in the same household can apply for welfare independently.
Ontario’s Minister of Community and Social Services investigated this issue of multiple wives are taking advantage of welfare and social benefits in Ontario (government and tax payer funded). These Muslim husbands obviously cannot afford to support their families but want all the associated privileges and were scamming the system. This is also shameful.
The anti-Muslim backlash as a result of this financial abuse was unwanted news for Muslims who are law abiding. It was all over the media.”
According to Canada’s 2011 National Household Survey, there were 1,053,945 Muslims in Canada. you picked out the case of only a few hundred muslims who were in bad economic condition. There are thousands of muslim doctors, engineers, accountants and other professionals etc. There are millions of muslims in USA.. If only a small percentage of these well established muslims decide to marry 2nd time (not four just two wives).., you would have no problem of surplus muslim women.
RE:” Why not address issues within our own community, tell our men and their parents to reconsider their approach toward Muslim women here.“
There is a need to change the mindset. I can’ disagree with you in this respect.This mindset may take a long time to change. Perhaps it would be better in 2nd or 3rd generation muslims in western countries. In short term polygamy can prove helpful.
RE:”Your statement to “one working husband and four working (professional class) wives.” Very few, if any, professional, educated Muslim women will enter a polygamous marriage. This not going to happen in North American. They are not going to share their husband with other women. Not happening and unrealistic. This approach will not solve any problems.”
Polygamy can not be forced on someone. If a professional educated Muslim woman don’t want it.I respect her decision. But for those who consider it. they can do this and there would be no financial problem because a professional woman do not need financial support from her husband rather she would be able to financially support her husband.
RE:”Achieving legislative change to marriage laws requires popular support by citizens. Polygamy is not likely to be accepted by the vast majority of North Americans. It took decades for gay rights to be implemented re: marriage and is defined as a monogamous relationship. The issue is no just one of multiple spouses vs one.
There are a gamut of other concerns which would have to be addressed re: insurance claims, property distribution, pension, next of kin status. The entire legal system is based on monogamy and polygamy will require changes to many other legislation regarding treatment of multiple spousal claimants. It is also a state by state issue.”
There is already such an example in India where muslims are governed by separate Islamic family laws why not this can be done in USA and Canada etc.If muslims follow the religion in letter and spirit and according to the constitution, they should be allowed to do so. We don’t want the majority of Americans to accept polygamy but to allow it to groups whose religion allow it i.e. muslims. The decision can be implemented by a court on the basis of relevant constitution acts or by government. It may prove easier than you think.
Re:Concerning Judge Waddoups’ ruling, it is subject to the Attorney General’s appeal. The likelihood of a successful appeal is high and the ruling may be struck down. The likelihood of judges across the other 49 states concurring with Waddoups – probably zero.
I think Judge Waddoups ruling is based on the relevant portion (religious freedom) of constitution and the constitution can not be struck down.
RE: financial stability by pooling resources in a polygamous marriage – a Muslim woman is not financially responsible for her husband’s other wives. In fact, she has no financial obligation to him and can keep her own wealth. A polygamous marriage is not based on women “pooling” their resources. There is no Islamic requirement for this financial application.
If a muslim woman wish/want to help her husband financially no Islamic law stop her from doing so. Also a muslim woman can continue her profession even after marriage. If you assume that after marriage all of them would sit in home and stop their work then it is a wrong supposition.
RE: “A Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman (with limitations), can marry multiple women, can have sexual relations with women not his wife (captives, slaves, concubines, those whom his “right hand possesses”) with no limitation to the number of females for sex – i.e. “inferior” status vs free women, legitimately have children as a result of such (unmarried) unions and “none” of this will negatively affect his status in the Akhira – as it is all halal.
If a Muslim woman marries a non-Muslim, has more than one spouse or sexual partner, has sex with anyone she is not married to, has children from marriage to non-Muslims deemed illegitimate – this will negatively affect her status in the Akhira – as it is all haram.
Men’s souls are saved, but women’s souls are condemned – for the same actions.”
Islam was not revealed in a vacuum. There was slavery and all kinds of evil so there are verses to address and regulate those issues. Today there are no captives and slaves. A muslim may/can have sexual relation with only and only his wife and vice versa. Both men and women are completely prohibited having sexual relationships out of wedlock. The punishment is the same for both. You should read this portion of your comment yourself. It does not make any sense.
RE:” Muslim fighting for their rights – an uphill battle. Muslims are addressing issues such as time off for prayers at work, right to wear hijab without discrimination etc. To enter into the marriage debate and asking the overwhelming majority of non-Muslims in the land to accept something culturally abnormal for them as polygamy is not going to happen. There has to be consensus.
With all the issues facing Muslims (and they are substantial), accommodation for polygamy and the arguments which will be brought forth against it will be monumental. Even the right to vote for women and African Americans took centuries to overcome. Civil rights for African Americans look the longest time to achieve due to prejudice and racism against them. Post 9/11 in certain parts of the US, Muslims are perceived to have the same footing unfortunately.
Examine what the outcome was re: attempts to establish some form of Sharia law for arbitration in Ontario. It was struck down. Following widespread condemnation of a plan that would formally allow the tenets of Sharia to be used in resolving family disputes, the Provincial Premier made the boundaries between church and state clear by banning faith-based arbitrations. Arguments were made re: 1991 Arbitration Act. But Ontario laws put a stop to religion-based settlements in matters such as child-custody disputes or inheritances.
And polygamy is to be injected into this? Think about it.”
If you want to live in USA Canda etc and want to raise your coming generation as muslim then you have to do work to have a better future for them. So did the black of the past who made a better environment for the blacks of today. If you can’t do this then perhaps you should return to your homeland.
RE: “In 2007 the conviction of Warren Jeffs (polygamist) in Utah shows that existing laws defining rape, both statutory and otherwise, are still in effect, as Jeffs was not convicted on this now modified law, but on statutory rape because one of his “wives” was a minor (teenager).
He was also charged for arranging marriages of under age teenaged girls to men age 19 and older. He is now serving a 100 year prison sentence – as such marriages are criminal and constitute serious sex crimes.”
I just recall “Saint Valentine”. He was also put into jail for arranging marriages. According to USA laws a teenage girl may have sex with as many people as possible and she may get pregnant but she can’t marry with honor according to western laws. You these laws..I call these jokes. Subhanallah! Islam is natural- the moment a girl reach puberty she is deemed fit to be married as per Islam.
Riaz: Whatever you deem are laws of joke, the point is the law is the law.
We function within this scope and not doing so will result in serious consequences. Muslims with your attitude should spend some time reading the definition of child abuse. Your approach is nonsensical as it provides absolutely no assistance to Muslims here. Your suggestions don’t help, in fact they are a quick way to end up in court and then in prison.
You stated: “The decision can be implemented by a court on the basis of relevant constitutional acts or by government. It may prove easier that you think” – Really?
What is your solution to how polygamy (which you support) can be applied in our tax codes, or property disputes? What about its application to pensions? How is insurance supposed to be applied with multiple spousal claimants? How is conflict of interest to be handled? How do you suggest that Muslims lobby for both legislative and constitutional changes for each and every legal aspect that polygamous marriages would affect? I would love to read your answers as it is apparently so easy.
Riaz: You stated: “Islam was not revealed in a vacuum. There was slavery and all kinds of evil so there are verses to address and regulate those issues. Today there are no captives and slaves.”
Get your facts straight:
When Tuaregs and Islamists seized Northern Mali, one aspect of their campaign was slavery. The Tuaregs are slaveholders. Despite French efforts, the Muslim Tuareg still continue to hold thousands of slaves.
Former Saudi Ambassador to the US (until 2005) Prince Bandar is the son Crown Prince Sultan bin Abdulaziz and a concubine. His father was not married to his mother.
Slavery does still exist in Muslim countries with horrific outcomes. I will not go into the all the examples here but suffice it to say that your notion that there are no captives and slaves today is absolutely wrong.
Riaz: You stated: “Both men and women are completely prohibited having sexual relationships out of wedlock. The punishment is the same for both. You should read this portion of your comment yourself. It does not make any sense.”
If the Qur’an is deemed to be permanent law, then it must be admitted that Islam does allow men to have sexual relations out of wedlock. The Qur’an allows Muslim men to have sex with slaves, with captives, with concubines outside of marriage.
The Prophet (pbuh) practiced this. For example, he was not married to his Jewish concubine Rayhana bint Zayd, she was enslaved after the defeat of the Banu Qurayza tribe. Many of the Sahabah also had concubines they were not married to. Whether such conditions exist now to accommodate these situations is irrelevant as the Qur’an states clearly that such sexual relationships for men are permissible and not contained within marriage.
For you to state that both men and women are completely prohibited from having sexual relationships out of wedlock is just plain wrong. This view contradicts the Qur’an.
Riaz: you stated: “If you want to live in USA Canda etc and want to raise your coming generation as muslim then you have to do work to have a better future for them. So did the black of the past who made a better environment for the blacks of today. If you can’t do this then perhaps you should return to your homeland”
When blacks were fighting for their rights, racist whites told them to go back to Africa. I am asking for Muslims to address our issues and then told to return to my homeland by you for not promoting polygamy.
Blacks also had help from civil liberties groups and non-blacks. Much blood was spilled over their struggle. How much assistant do you think Muslims will get? I have been in North America since the age of 7. My country of origin has a 2% Muslim population. I have not set foot in my former country since 1965. I have no relation to that non-Muslim, non-Desi, non-Arab country. I am North American raised and firmly North American and your suggestion of returning to my “homeland” is truly a ridiculous and weak response. I don’t even speak the language.
You also stated: “There is already such an example in India where muslims are governed by separate Islamic family laws why not this can be done in USA and Canada”.
Brilliant – why not equate what happened in “INDIA” to Canada and the USA?! Besides having completely different legal systems, there are about 220 million Muslims in India vs about 3.5 million in Canada and US combined.
Which Government is likely to address their internal minority’s issue? Which country has Muslims who have had communities for centuries with former dynastic rulers as Muslim and a history of separate family law application according to religious community (aka – a strong legal precedent)?
And which country has recent immigrants (for the most part certainly in Canada with 940,000 Muslims) from a multitude of countries and cultural variance who are still struggling with the concept of respecting the law of the land (re: marriage especially plural and with minors) and almost zero lobbying strength?
The fact that I had to explain this is mind boggling!
If you can’t see the problem in this argument then no amount of information or logic will help you. Decorum will not permit me to state what I really want to write here.
Riaz: you stated: “According to Canada’s 2011 National Household Survey, there were 1,053,945 Muslims in Canada. you picked out the case of only a few hundred muslims who were in bad economic condition. There are thousands of muslim doctors, engineers, accountants and other professionals etc. There are millions of muslims in USA.. If only a small percentage of these well established muslims decide to marry 2nd time (not four just two wives).., you would have no problem of surplus muslim women.”
Any Muslim professional who would enter a polygamous marriage here – can kiss his career goodbye.
He will be finished both professionally and socially. The lawsuits that will come forth from his actual (first) wife will ensure that he ends up on welfare or in jail. No man will risk this and face being disbarred etc and will lose his professional practice amongst the general population once his polygamous status is revealed. This is guaranteed. A fast way to ensure he goes broke with all wives and children out on the street.
Apparently mainly Muslim men (bad economic condition), with limited education and income potential are marrying equally uneducated and completely dependent women in polygamous marriages. This is why the financial exploitation of government funds is so appealing to them. Its free money for a bunch of free loaders who have no self respect but want all the privileges.
I didn’t “pick out” these cases, these are the types of Muslim men who are participating in polygamy with few exceptions. They are reflective of polygamists – broke and ignorant with equally broke and ignorant wives – all in line for welfare handouts. Absolutely shameful.
Any more brilliant suggestions?
Do you have a problem with math as you have repeatedly displayed with bizarre calculations?
Riaz: If you call the laws of the land “jokes” and if you reside in North America – I suggest you seriously consider what you are doing here. If you don’t live here than don’t make any comments about our systems.
The laws of Canada and the US provide substantially more protection and rights than those in Muslim countries. There is far more humanity and justice here than what prevails in most Muslim lands – which have horrendous human rights violations and corruption. This is why we don’t want women and minors exploited.
If the laws are a joke to you, it is you – not me, who should be packing up and shipping out (as you said I should return to my “homeland” – as if you know anything about that). Everything you have suggested in grossly unreal and of no help to any Muslim.
Many Muslims here are sick of this constant nonsense and are quietly leaving Islam so as not to upset family. They don’t announce anything they just don’t participate because when they do ask for proper implementation or want issues addressed – they are told the usual “if you don’t like it leave Islam or go back to your country” by some fellow Muslims. Both idiotic and foolish responses.
The “you-can’t-ask-questions” approach has opened the door for the exodus. The lack of solutions beside “take it or leave it” will swing the door open wider. The absolute lack of solutions rests on the shoulders of Muslims. The “who cares” response. Muslims who cannot even explain their positions or suggest such messed up solutions that any reasonable Muslim will bolt at even remotely being associated with such ignorance, especially when they are told this is “true” Islam by some myopic believers.
Sarah, we are not in competition of who does more for muslim women…you raised how wonderful you are I personally don’t really care….
You say:
‘You don’t seem to be able to explain anything’
I have – Ive told you the law, you can read, read it for yourself….but you have so many what ifs, what if we could change it, what if we could marry who we want, woudnt life me so wonderful and so on and on…and with all due respect, I follow Allah and His book not what Hazret Umar said or did, not when it contradicts the Quran.
Sarah, (and apologies I didnt read ALLLLL of your message….but I got the gist) you say
‘I and others will continue to do our best to clean up messes promoted by Muslim such as you. Keep up your work of completely being unable to explain, contribute, help, offer solutions – at all’.
And your proposition is to make halal what Allah has made haram? What mess are you talking about? All I’m advocating is following Allahs word – The one laid out in the Quran ordered by Allah – is that the mess you are referring to – that you feel the need to clean up, what Allah has said?
.and re the literal meaning – somethings are written plainly to be understood plainly- the Quran was written for everyone Sarah …yes, some of the Quran requires further knowledge but on the whole it is written for the individual to read and understand so – Sarah read it – don’t run to your scholors, looking for faith – faith is tested in sacrifice…Abraham (PBUH) didnt look here and their for interpretation of a dream he knew what he had to do and did it…based on a dream he was prepared to make the sacrifice – you see it in black and white and still look for interpretation….where is your sacrifice?
Rehaam: you stated “and re the literal meaning – somethings are written plainly to be understood plainly – the Quran was written for everyone Sarah …yes, some of the Quran requires further knowledge but on the whole it is written for the individual to read and understand so – Sarah read it”
I have read the Qur’an several times, over decades with several teachers. I even spent one academic year with a renowned Islamic Law professor learning method (its not much but it was an effort). Muslim scholars and commentators of Qur’an are unanimous on the view that “no one” has the right to interpret the verses of Qur’an according to one’s personal view and opinion. Many traditions are narrated in this regard.
The Prophet (pbuh) said: “One who interprets the Qur’an according to personal opinion makes his place in fire (Hell).”
You stated “I follow Allah and His book not what Hazret Umar said or did, not when it contradicts the Quran.”
Re: something written plainly – then why did Hazrat Umar negate what the Qur’an said about marriage? Do you consider Umar to have committed a sin by opposing that Qur’anic verse?
You stated: “What mess are you talking about? All I’m advocating is following Allahs word – The one laid out in the Quran ordered by Allah – is that the mess you are referring to – that you feel the need to clean up, what Allah has said?”
I am not in any way “cleaning up what Allah said” (or even inferring it).
The mess I am referring to (created by Muslims) include the misapplication of Islam where Muslim women are told to go ahead and enter polygamous marriages (for example) and then left in terrible circumstances as all the rights associated with such marriages (which Allah gave us) cannot be implemented by Muslims. When marriages breakdown, none of the Islamic rights are in place to protect women.
Muslims who promote polygamy don’t consider the absence of Islamic legal and structural support. This is Muslims’ fault and not God’s. Under a fully operational Islamic socio-economic order, women in polygamous marriages would have some degree of protection. But outside of this order, they are in a horribly vulnerable position.
The mess includes no legal status with husband, no recourse, no support payment, no claims to funds a wife is entitled to, excluded from bank accounts, no property rights, homelessness, women in public shelters with children, immigration issues etc. This is the mess caused by Muslims which others have to clean up.
If you are “advocating following Allah’s word” then Muslims such as you are responsible for ensuring all provisions are in place i.e. socio-economic-legal order via Islam. If you cannot provide this, then don’t promote marriages where Muslim women are left on the street literally.
This has nothing to do with Allah, but with ignorant Muslims and their half cooked, borderline raw notions which get others into serious trouble and then have the nerve to state it is Allah’s word. Outrageous.
I never said I was wonderful and we already know that “you don’t care” Rehaam. About anything.
The Prophet (pbuh) said: “One who interprets the Qur’an according to personal opinion makes his place in fire (Hell).”
Well said Sarah…seems like your getting the message…..finally….
Riaz: you stated “We don’t want the majority of Americans to accept polygamy but to allow it to groups whose religion allow it i.e. muslims.”
That is not how the law works. There is no special provision for marriage for one religious group to extend it to something as complex as polygamy. If polygamy is to be accepted, it must be accepted for all Americans – and this will never pass into law. As gay marriage was accepted, this is open to all gay citizens – regardless of religion or gender.
If someone is in a heterosexual marriage, that person can get a divorce and enter a gay marriage (or vice versa). The law allows for either same sex or traditional monogamous marriage. There cannot be a 2-tiered system where Muslims Americans have multiple wives and non-Muslims Americans are limited to one wife. Imagine the chaos of polygamy in legal terms. It will never pass. I find your lack of knowledge concerning the law shocking. No wonder everything is “so easy” in your eyes.
There are other restrictions too such as first-cousin marriages are illegal in about half of the states.
The Daily Mail in the UK (Sept 2011) reported the following re: Muslim men Exploiting Financial benefits via polygamy – excerpts:
It notes: “shambolic benefits system is being exploited by men hailing from Pakistan and other Muslim nations who indulge in multiple marriages — with taxpayers forced to foot the bill. . . .’ As a result, several “families” fathered by the same man can all claim benefits, as they are provided for by the welfare state, which treats them as if they were not related.’
Although the Government says there are only 1,000 such bigamous or polygamous unions in the UK, two experienced Lancashire social workers — one of Indian-English heritage and the other with Pakistani origins — told me that, although it’s difficult to be precise, in their estimation the figure is closer to 20,000.
The social workers said the multiple marriages are encouraged by a welfare system which allows a second, third or fourth wife to be treated as a single mother who gets a house and an array of other state payments for herself and her children.
Controversially, it means that a man can take a new spouse (from anywhere in the world), sire any number of children with her, and yet have no responsibility for this family’s upkeep or care.
To avoid breaking Britain’s matrimony laws, the men marry their extra ‘wives’ in an Islamic Nikah ceremony, either in their own homes or a mosque.
These marriages are not recognized officially, so they do not appear in government statistics or have any status under the law. They also do not count when assessing welfare payments.
Another technique is for a couple to marry legally under British law but then divorce, leaving them then to have a Nikah ceremony and continue living together. The woman will then be entitled to welfare payments as a single mother and the man can then bring another woman from abroad and legally marry her in Britain.
Men also cheat the system by bringing brides from abroad as nannies for their children, or as care givers for a sick relative. The bride gets a year’s visitors’ visa, disappears into a tight-knit local community, and is entitled to receive welfare hand-outs.
While it has long been a cliche for men to complain that their wives and children take up most of their income, the reality for polygamous husbands is that the more babies he sires, the more money pours in for him and his wives.
‘These arrangements satisfy a man’s sexual desires when he is trapped in an unhappy or sexless arranged marriage with a first wife and their families don’t countenance a divorce.
‘The first wives often accept the situation as a compromise. There is a limitless number of girls living in Muslim countries wanting to come to the UK for what they, and their parents, think is a better life even as a second, third or fourth wife.
It claimed that men living in a harem arrangement, with their wives under the same roof, were each claiming state handouts of £10,000 a year for the spouses through income support, housing and child benefits.
But the report ignored the thousands of men squeezing more money from the state by having a string of wives living in separate homes, all claiming benefits intended for single mothers and their children.
Those women are eligible for full housing benefit — reaching £106,000 a year in some parts of London — and child benefit paid at £1,000 a year for a first child, and nearly £700 for each subsequent one. Little wonder there has been an increase of foreign brides.
Each year, London solicitor Anne-Marie Hutchinson, of family law firm Dawson Cornwell, advises around 20 Muslim women who have married in a Nikah ceremony — many of them second or third wives now facing marital breakdown.
‘These women are left unprotected,’ she explains. ‘They cannot claim matrimonial rights. They get no maintenance payments or share in their husband’s pension contributions. They are not wives in the eyes of the British legal system.’
RE: a Bangladeshi Muslim woman – She was deserted by her husband of 20 years when he went on holiday to Bangladesh and returned to say he was about to marry a girl of 19, called Saba, in a Nikah ceremony, and wanted to bring her to Britain as his second wife.”
My note: no wonder polygamy is being promoted so much. It is a great money making, exploitative business where men such as pizza delivery drivers are able to have several wives and children in the UK. Why not, he’s not paying.
The mafia could learn from this scam. If a man doesn’t like a wife, get rid of her and bring another one – with no legal or financial responsibility. Meanwhile, the unearned money keeps pouring in from taxpayers.
Extremely shameful behavior by Muslims.
And who cares about what happens to the Muslim women discarded by husbands who feel the need to “move on”? “Who cares” sums it up. Everyone is there for the party, but no one wants to clean up – especially when it comes to women. Thrown to the dogs without one bit of support or rights under Islam – no implementation.
Notice Riaz that I didn’t have your bad taste to suggest to you if you are promoting polygamy for some personal financial benefit. I addressed the “issue” head-on. I never inferred if it was due to your “hidden desire” as you stated to me, as I don’t think your naivety is a result of any agenda.
Perhaps that is the difference between North Americans and more conservative Muslims – who rarely never directly address issues, it is always draped in accusation or some personal motivation etc. Points are not discussed based on merit, but attributed to some “secret agenda” or wrong deductions based on an intellectually challenged thought process.
The “unable to explain anything regarding Islam” route by some Muslims is of no help either, as it means nothing to another person and is a hollow and a cheap out.
RE:”Don’t worry, with Muslims being unable to address our challenges as minorities – you will soon see the exodus and many of them will leave the religion, it won’t be too long before a substantial portion of the next generation of Muslims will turn secular. Now go ahead and blame them for being so worthless and wrong – rather than admit that Muslims are in an extremely weak position to address anything except the usual “take it or leave it” stance. Because when they do try to address it, they are met with responses such as yours.
When Muslims start leaving (many already have) we shouldn’t be surprised. But of course, they are no bother to a believer such as yourself. “Who cares” about them (your words) – just as long as we solid Muslims are correct with ticket in hand for jannat. I’m sure it feels good to be such a great Muslim – from the “who cares” school of thought – a generous, thoughtful, inclusive, inviting, kind, compassionate approach indeed (not).”
From where you get such information. Do some research. Islam is the fastest growing religion. Over 20000 american accept Islam per year (NBC news). Countless white and black american are leaving their respective religions and embracing Islam. For your information the majority of converts is women.Each and every media give the information that people are coming to Islam. You are the first one to suggest otherwise. Is this misinformation or some hidden desire?
Riaz: A substantial number of Muslims in North America are not practicing Muslims. They have no interest in Islam and are Muslims in name only. The new converts were not raised as Muslims and if they chose to embrace Islam than that is great, but those born Muslims are facing their own crisis for a great number of reasons. This is not all Muslims, but a good portion who chose to keep quiet but have very little to do with Islam or Muslims.
Re: female converts – many are doing so as they are married to Muslim men. The Muslim men are not marrying born Muslim female – which was my original point. Often such conversions occur years after marriage.
I don’t appreciate you disregarding what is going on with Muslims in North America and stating that my pointing out unappetizing details are someone a result of “some hidden desire”.
I suggest you work on solutions which are not illegal (such as polygamy) for starters which may actually assist Muslim women rather than ponder over my “motives”. Your first email shows a complete lack of understanding of life for Muslims in North America, our legal structures and your complete disregard for the law. I gave you a concrete response and attributed your input to being well intended however naive. Work on that before questioning my “motives”.
“O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
THIS IS NOT A MAN MADE LAW BUT A QURANIC, ALLAH’s LAW.
Just curious, what is your tally of how many unbelievers you have fought near you? How about for this week, in your neighborhood? This ayat orders you to fight. When do you intend to do so? Should we alert the authorities that you are coming? Perhaps the FBI, RCMP or Scotland Yard? When do you intend to follow this law? Please don’t disappoint us and say you haven’t been involved in any sword fights yet. We wouldn’t want you to go against God’s law, would we?”
Qura (9:123)….The word used here is Al-Kuffar.. In arabic if Al comes before , it means specifc…so this verse is for specific Kuffar -who were enemies of muslims and were on war with them. It is not for general Kuffars. Once again I would advise you to do some research, please!
Riaz: I am fully aware of this and I don’t need to “do some research”. You missed my point. I made this reference as Rehaam was quite intent of quoting the Qur’an without any context or background. She kept stating it is Allah’s law. I was questioning her literalist reading.
Muslims with literalist understanding cannot differentiate between kuffar (unbelievers) vs those who are identified as enemy combatants. They would read it as Allah simply stated “all” kuffar and that it is not for us to explain the context of general unbelievers vs in war. Context and historical background mean nothing to literalist Muslims. That was my point and I made jest of it.
Of course I know that this verse is only applicable during war. But Rehaam believes in quoting everything literally. I was making that point. I expected her to state that such as law is applicable under certain circumstances and is not applicable outside of that scope. She of course did not respond to this as it is apparently not her “aim to explain”. You of course, took me literally and did not digest that it was Rehaam’s literal understanding I questioned in the first place.
According to the statistics of census 2010, there are 157.0 million female and 151.8 million male.. means 4.2 million women would be unable to find husband according to USA laws.There is no way out for these women in USA laws. Islam allows Polygamy under certain limitations and therefore there is a way out in Islam. I think that allowing polygamy may be with certain conditions or preconditions would make the law somewhat more flexible and efficient. Of course such changes have to be made by the relevant parliaments. But increasing awareness is something which everyone can do!
Riaz: Polygamy was continued in Islam due to the need to ensure women who were left widowed after wars etc were not left destitute. It was a way to ensure they had shelter, food and was a very humane option presented by Islam. It was also an extension of the existing tribal laws of that time and place but with limitations. It was part of the Islamic socio-economic order of taking care of the vulnerable.
This is not a free pass for Muslim men today to have multiple wives they cannot afford to keep. Islam always states to marry when a man has the means to. Qur’an 4:25 “Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. . .” The qualifying factor is to “afford to marry”. Not have taxpayers pay for their illegitimate marriages conveniently set up to rip off the financial benefits system as is occurring in the UK and elsewhere.
Think of the young people in Egypt who are simply unable to marry as they cannot afford to. This is compounded with unemployment problems after receiving a university education. There are reports of men and women having to wait to marry due to expenses and the housing crisis in urban Egyptian cities. They cannot afford a monogamous marriage and polygamy is out of the question for them. This reflects economic conditions in that country and no doubt are difficult for its citizens.
But due to the economic benefits in the UK, Muslims with no education, real job or career are practicing polygamy with the Government’s money. Its a free ride for them. Muslim women ending up in legal clinics after they realize they have to no rights when their husbands decide to turn them out. New wives from countries abroad lined up to be the next number 4 wife. Their families in other countries encouraging them – per money and foot into the west. No legal recourse for co-wives.
Polygamy is not going to become law in the west. This is a fact. No amount of lobbying and protests by Muslims is going to change that. The entire legal system will require adjustment and this in not going to happen. It is a highly complex issue with no basis in reality.
The sooner Muslims accept this and realize they are not in a position for a Constitutional challenge, the faster they may begin to address the real core issues of our marriage crisis in the west and offer concrete solutions – polygamy not being one of them.
Re: your stated “There is no way out for these women in USA laws” – Yes there is – non-Muslim women have the freedom to live with men outside of marriage. They can be involved in serial monogamous relationships (one after another). They don’t have to marry. Those women who earn enough do not require financial support from a man. Inheritance is also a contributor.
Muslim women however do not live with men outside of marriage. We do not jump from one relationship to another after a few years if things don’t work out. Don’t worry about “these women in the USA” who are not subject to our Islamic restrictions, worry about our Muslim sisters first. The sooner “polygamy as a legal option” is off the table, the sooner solutions may be brought forth.
It is apparent that Muslim men are abusing polygamy for their own purposes, with Muslim women who are ready to exploit themselves as participants. After reading numerous, lengthy legal reports concerning abuse women face with these arrangements this is clear. Muslims really need to stop promoting polygamy as they ignore all the consequences for women.
Monetary gain seems to be driving this promotion of polygamy – not Islam – which is only being used as an excuse for this exploitation.
Sarah, if the mistress culture in France is acceptable, if in UK the relationship and children outside of marriage can find a way ,,,,then I’m sure polygamy will find a place…
Rehaam: you stated “Sarah, if the mistress culture in France is acceptable, if in UK the relationship and children outside of marriage can find a way ,,,,then I’m sure polygamy will find a place…”
Really? The mistress culture is NOT acceptable in North America – AT ALL.
The married men who do so are severely chastised. Here are some public examples of men with mistresses and what happened to them:
– President Bill Clinton was IMPEACHED in Office re: relationship with Monica Lewinsky
– Presidential candidate Gary Hart’s campaign ENDED after he was photographed cavorting with a woman on his boat.
– Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani FORCED TO QUIT his Presidential campaign in 2008 re: affair with mistress.
– West Virginia Governor Bob Wise did NOT seek a second term after disclosure that he had a mistress.
– Jack Ryan – Senate campaign ENDED re: extramarital affair with mistress.
– US Congressman Bob Livingston – forced to RESIGN from Congress over an extramarital affair with mistress.
– US Congressman Don Sherwood – LOST his seat in Congress re: mistress
Those less famous usually end up in divorce court fast. Canada and the US are not Europe and polygamy is not going to be accepted here. Where do you get such ridiculous ideas?
I’ve noticed you did not address “ANY” of the legal issues I’ve raised associated with polygamy – yet you are “sure” polygamy will find a place (!)
Do you have enough straws to grasp at this point?
Rehaam: Let me understand your logic re: mistress culture in France and equating it to the eventual acceptance of polygamy.
France – a country where Muslims face something as simple as wearing hijab – BUT WEARING IT IS LEGALLY BANNED in certain institutions. Where Muslims in French state schools who wear hijab must remove it or leave.
Where anti-Muslim attacks nearly doubled, from 298 in 2011, to 469 in 2012. Attacks increasingly target individuals – particularly women – over institutions, although the number of attacks on mosques also doubled, to 40.
I see, so with these types of challenges that Muslims face there, somehow the French – due to their cultural acceptance of mistresses, will accommodate Muslims with polygamy.
So Muslim women can’t wear hijab, are subject to attacks – BUT in some remarkable way – the practice of polygamy will find a place? That society will open its arms to Muslim practices?
Come on Rehaam – get real. Do you really believe this or is something quite wrong re: potential brain trauma or loss of IQ points that fell onto the floor but never retrieved by you for future use?
‘The mistress culture is NOT acceptable in North America’ Is it illegal?
As a very intelligent being who clearly had no accidents involving the brain you should be aware that change does not take place over night – neither should all your reasoning just be about your present gains – think long term Sarah….and about others not just yourself.
Islam doesn’t grow through cowards Sarah – its takes the brave…to stick to their rules, to be diplomatic and to have a solid agenda…your agenda Sarah is not to introduce Islamic ways of life into non Islamic cultures but to leave Islamic principles for non Islamic ways.
If all muslims wanted to change Islam for their own purposes….Islam would be made of weak, insecure and bitter muslims angry and embarrased of the very faith they profess to follow…..
Islam is a strong religion, strong people follow it -strong people implement it as much as they can in new environments hence the ease muslims have in the UK after 50 years weak people change it…. strong muslims change the environment – it takes dedication, diplomacy, sacrifice, patience and resolve……..weak muslims because they are weak and lack character – rather than change the environment simply try to change the Quran….
Rehaam: you asked “The mistress culture is NOT acceptable in North America’ – Is it illegal?”
Within the North American context:
No, it is not illegal. Mistresses are basically a married man’s lover, a bedmate. It is socially devastating for a married man to be caught cheating, so it is shunned. Usually wealthy and powerful men have mistresses as such women are looking for some form of material gain from them, rather than choosing to be involved with a single man who may not have as much to offer. They make themselves available to these men.
Mistresses do not do housework for such men, they do not cook for them, they do not have children with them. The wife is the man’s social and public “face” and maintains his image in society, she has his children, she represents his family. The wife is usually from a similar socio-economic background and with comparable education to her husband. They are the “couple”. Often wives help men with their careers and social mobility, especially politicians and businessmen.
The mistress does not usually come from a similar background as the wife, as the mistress is not publically recognized due to the secrecy of their relationship. She is viewed as transient in the man’s life, not permanent. She gets something from it, he gets something and both know where they stand. A man usually never leaves his wife for the mistress. Mistresses can be replaced as they are “girlfriends”. Such relationships can cause STD to spread to the innocent wife – very serious as they are no longer monogamous.
The mistress does not have any legal standing with her married lover. She has no property rights, she cannot make any financial claims against him. She does not share a home with him. She cannot be seen at public functions with him – he will be ruined professionally and socially. She can also be dismissed by him if he no longer wants to see her and vice versa. Often such men help their mistresses with their own careers and introduce them to relevant people. Discretion is key.
The status of mistress is often clouded with shame as the affair is occurring at the expense of the wife’s respect. For a married man to have a sexual relationship with another woman is the ultimate disrespect to his wife. For millions of Christians here, this is abhorrent behavior as marriage vows were defied. For the non-religious, this is abhorrent due to loss of trust and disrespect. Women advise other women not to have anything to do with a married man, as it is a bad choice to begin with.
A woman’s self respect is also on the line when getting involved with another woman’s husband. When such affairs are exposed, the wife usually files for divorce and takes a substantial financial settlement from her ex-husband. She will not be cooperating with him on legal matters. Children are angry and end up blaming their father for the destruction of their family life as parents have now split up due to his selfishness. The mistress may be cited as “the other woman” in a divorce case. Society does not tolerate this behavior as it occurred within marriage. Relationships outside marriage are viewed differently as people are single.
It is not illegal, but proven highly destructive to participants and hurtful to family life in North America. People spend years in psychological counseling and other therapy over this.
The “other woman” (mistress) is never tolerated by society, which is why even well liked men of high stature such as Governors and Presidents, Presidential candidates etc had to resign from their careers or face severe rebuke for having mistresses. It caused a crisis in the Clinton Administration and led to Impeachment (severe penalty).
Public apologies had to made on television by these men for their involvement with their mistresses, usually crying and admitting to wrong doing. The public cannot accept this. Such relationships are unwelcomed, unwanted and shunned.
Look what happened to golfer Tiger Woods. He lost $billion dollar endorsement deals for his mistress mishaps. His brand and products nose diving with him. His wife divorced him and took their kids.
Mistresses are completely unacceptable by North American standards.
I know what a mistress is and its consequences….thank you.
‘Literal understandings which actually contradict the meaning of the Texts as stated by Islamic scholars (as they are simply “lifted” and perceive as “flat”) or understanding the meaning of Islam’s overall message within the correct context and historicity – including its intent’.
Shall we not focus too much on Islamic scholars – and focus on what Allah has said….
Rehaam: you stated “Islam doesn’t grow through cowards Sarah – its takes the brave…to stick to their rules, to be diplomatic and to have a solid agenda. . .”
This is coming from you who has no responses for anything?
You write about having faith and simply believing. Having faith is different from indoctrination. You are highly indoctrinated which is why you can’t explain anything about Islam. You state you don’t have to and point to verses in the Qur’an. You don’t have a clue and its apparent.
You disqualify what Hazrat Umar did when he made haram what the Qur’an said was halal re: marriage. You don’t even understand what happened in our history that lead to that (although I pointed out the reason). You disregarded Umar although he was a “Rightly Guided Caliph”. You have no understanding of who, what, where, when or why – because you think your blind belief is enough to compensate.
Well that won’t help us to grow here.
You stated “neither should all your reasoning just be about your present gains – think long term Sarah….and about others not just yourself.” Gains – really?
Well Rehaam when irresponsible Muslims such as you promote polygamy with no care to its consequences to women – who helps to clean up the mess?
Is it you who is setting up meetings for such women with legal clinics when things go wrong? Is it you is trying to find them and their children emergency shelter, while their husband is busy in bed with wife number 3? Is it you who is arranging for a translator? Is it you who is filling out documents pertaining to immigration status? Is it you accompanying them to the lawyer’s office? Who is escalating issues as required? You Rehaam?
You stated “Sarah, we are not in competition of who does more for muslim women” – correct we are not, and I do not consider you to be “competition” – by any means.
If Muslims are creating their own messes, don’t expect us to be in a strong or organized position to address challenges for the long term. Not with the level of stupidity around espousing unrealistic and destructive notions. Our communities are filled with very bright people as well as extremely stupid ones.
Concerning my “present gains” (?), I live by the following Hadith:
“Whosoever removes a worldly grief from a believer, Allah will remove from him one of the griefs of the Day of Judgment. Whosoever alleviates (the lot of) a needy person, Allah will alleviate (his lot) in this world and the next. Whosoever shields a Muslim, Allah will shield him in this world and the next.”
The term “worldly grief” means what is going on now with Muslim women’s lives. Not some esoteric understanding, but what is happening with our women.
As I stated before, me and other Muslims are the ones cleaning up the legal and social and financial mess made by Muslims such as you – especially when it comes to Muslim women re: polygamy and marriage. You wouldn’t even know what I am referring to, as that is the cost of having a religiously indoctrinated mind without any thorough understanding – besides a literalist one. No wonder you can’t explain anything.
Solutions are so far beyond your grasp – either addressing them legally, socially, politically or economically. You don’t agree with me but can’t explain why or offer anything concrete.
Our great Jurists of centuries past never had this attitude and Sharia varied and actually conflicted with other rulings, in other geographic areas. Why would this happen if the Qur’an had only one view? Why did our great and brilliant Jurists reach different conclusions? Did you know anything about their process? Or are you going to dismiss them all as you did the great Hazrat Umar and state your narrow and highly limited, literal reading of the Qur’an is enough for you Rehaam? What a foolish attitude. Is this your big out all the time?
Any more Muslims of like mind such as you – heavily indoctrinate, thoughtless and literalist Muslims – we won’t have to worry about non-Muslim cultures and their responses to us, as we will have our own internal nightmare within our communities to deal with.
You stated “Islam would be made of weak, insecure and bitter muslims angry and embarrased of the very faith they profess to follow…..” The embarrassment is not with Islam – the embarrassment is with ignorant Muslims who know nothing and offer no solutions.
Rehaam: you stated “Shall we not focus too much on Islamic scholars – and focus on what Allah has said….”
Do you mean like scholars such as Abu Hanifa an-Numan, Malik ibn Anas, Muhammad ibn Idris ash Shafi or Ahmed ibn Hanbal? Combined centuries of scholarship with commentary?
Not focus on that Rehaam? – because minds such as yours can understand the Qur’an without scholarly aid from genius level Muslims, including brilliant and well qualified scholars today?
Your responses are the most vacuous I have read.
You stated “Islam would be made of weak, insecure and bitter muslims angry and embarrased of the very faith they profess to follow…..” The embarrassment is not with Islam – the embarrassment is with ignorant Muslims who know nothing and offer no solutions.
What kind of solutions are you looking for? To be able to marry a non muslim? Yes, then you cant be happy with your religion if your trying to change it? That is what Im talking about – if you follow a religion which has become difficult due to SOCIAL reasons…follow it with some pride…
The exceptions for a muslim to marry a believer out of Islam has clearly been given to men not women….deal with it….
Rehaam: you stated “What kind of solutions are you looking for? To be able to marry a non muslim? Yes, then you cant be happy with your religion if your trying to change it? . . . The exceptions for a muslim to marry a believer out of Islam has clearly been given to men not women….deal with it”
Our scholars have made a number of exceptions to marriage according to Muslims’ situations. A number of them are now extending it to women (whether you like it or not) as they are far better qualified in Islamic teachings than you.
In Islam we have permanent marriage, temporary marriage (mut’ah) – centuries old, misyar marriage. The last two types contradict the original Qur’anic intent of marriage however became necessary due to circumstances. It is permitted due to “balancing the risk” of avoiding more serious issues as fornication, so scholars have allowed both mut’ah and misyar marriages.
Are the Muslim Imams who support this “not happy” with their religion as you put it? Are they now to quit Islam as you suggest? Are Muslim men and women who participate in misyar marriages contradicting Islam as the financial responsibilities are removed? The Qur’an speaks specifically to the issue of rights and responsibilities yet misyar contradicts.
Rehaam, you simply view marriage from the perspective of what is allowed for men vs women. It is far more complex than that. It is not simply one of gender but if other forms of marriages besides permanent ones are permitted – are participants, whether male or female, correct in their participation of non-permanent marriage? If not (as there is no mention of it in the Qur’an), then why did the our Prophet (pbuh) allow it?
Nikah Misyar is not found in the Qur’an or Sunnah. However, the concept of such an arrangement can be found being discussed in the works of classical Muslim Jurists.
Re: Mut’ah – The Shafi’is state that if one marries, and it is in his intention to divorce the wife after a period of time he has in mind, the marriage is considered valid.
As for the Hanbalis, they stated that if a person marries with the intention of divorcing the woman, even without stating it explicitly in the marriage contract itself, then the marriage is invalid, because it is a temporary marriage, which is invalid by explicit primary texts.
So we see that even scholars from our great Schools of Thought have “divergent rulings” on marriage and contradict each other.
On the issue of Muslim women and non-Muslim men:
UK reports that interfaith relationships have at times led to ostracism and violence against the Muslim female/non-Muslim male couples, sometimes even resulting in forced marriages and honor killings. According to the UK constabulary 2,823 honor crimes were reported to the police in 2010 and an estimated 10,000 forced marriages take place in Britain every year.
This is how some Muslims treat our women in the name of Islam. Through murder and ostracism. Our Islamic scholars are seeing the negative behavior of Muslims and are responding – as they have to – especially as it pertains to marriage.
Our scholars (whom you heavily dismiss) are beginning to address this serious problem. The following is from a source:
The three main arguments used against Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men: 1. Religion of the children, 2. Loss of marital rights and 3. Issues of family law. These arguments presume we live in a patriarchal world where men are in “charge” of women, and men and women do not have equal rights.
1. Religion of children: the mother is the primary caregiver and nurturer of the children. This means that the mother is the one who is spending the most time with the children, teaching them values, behavior and, yes, religion as well. So in reality, this is more of an argument against Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women (since they would most likely teach the children their own religion), rather than against Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men. (The Qur’anic allowance in this case is actually damaging in today’s context where we live as minorities in the west).
2. Loss of Marital Rights:
Islam gave women marital rights they had not previously had. Since then however, these rights have become common place. In most societies today you can choose to keep your own name, a man cannot force you to convert to his religion, and he cannot take your personal income against your will.
Furthermore, this argument presumes that all Muslims are righteous men who will honor these rights and create an ideal marriage where each partner respects, loves and works with the other partner. This is ideal, but it is not reality. (Note: Certainly the high divorce rate for Muslims is indicative of serious problems today).
3. Issues of family law:
Reality is that Islamic law is not static. The rights granted in the Qur’an are the minimum, not the maximum. Furthermore, every couple will be subject to the laws of the country where they are married and/or reside. Which, amongst others, mean that the mother will often be more likely to be granted custody than the father. Again, this is actually more of an issue for Muslim men marrying outside their faith.
Sheikh, Dr. Abou El Fadl, an Islamic jurist and scholar who has studied Islamic jurisprudence in Egypt and Kuwait, as well as a prominent Professor of Law at UCLA, with degrees from Yale and Princeton. He has issued a fatwa on the issue of Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men. He comes to the following conclusion:
“In all honesty, personally, I am not convinced that the evidence prohibiting Muslim women from marrying a kitabi (Person of the Book, i.e., Christian or Jewish) is very strong. Muslim jurists took a very strong position on this matter, many of them going as far as saying if a Muslim woman marries a kitabi she is as good as an apostate. I think, and God knows best, that this position is not reasonable and the evidence supporting it is not very strong.
He further states “However, I must confess that in my humble opinion, I strongly sympathize with the Jurists that argued that in non-Muslim countries it is reprehensible (makruh) for a Muslim to marry a non-Muslim.” This includes jurists who do not want Muslim “men” to marry non-Muslim women although the Qur’an permits it.
Clearly what is allowed varies according to circumstance. What is halal in the Qur’an is deemed haram according to circumstance (e.g. Hazrat Umar forbade his men to marry non-Muslim women) although the Qur’an allows it.
Or the sanctity of a proper permanent marriage being replaced from as early as the Prophet’s (pbuh) and Sahabah’s time when their men were out on campaigns – later it was reversed, although many Muslims kept it. What is haram – is deemed to be halal such as misyar marriages, where none of the responsibilities mentioned of the Qur’an exist.
The above cannot simple be cast aside as something which “men” were permitted to do, as women were affected as well by the rulings. What is forbidden is not forbidden – according to circumstance – not gender.
Given the current situation with our women, the violence against them for wanting to marry non-Muslims, the forced marriages of under aged girls taken from countries such as the UK to places like Pakistan to be married off, raped and abused as detailed in public records – to avoid them marrying non-Muslim men or even Muslim men of their choice. All the police charges occurring. The long list of incredibly disgusting outcomes of the treatment of our women concerning marriage in some western nations – are all forcing our imams to re-evaluate what to do about it.
Rehaam I realize you are a literalist and from that perspective none of the above makes any sense to you. Not even rulings from our great Shafi and Hanbali scholars which contradict each other re: marriage. I know your usual position of “it’s not allowed for Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men” but none of the above were allowed either for Muslim men – until they were allowed.
Islam is not static. In time, after enough damage to Muslim women occurs, after enough deaths in western countries via “honor killings” occur, after enough women can’t find Muslim husbands occur (unless they want to get involved in an immigration scheme), after the Muslim divorce rate in North America passes the 1 in 3 mark, after it is realized that simply looking a population numbers of Muslims in specific western countries is not enough to address the marriage crisis (the so called false “plenty of Muslim men around” argument) without looking at racial issues Muslims have with each other due to the enormous nationality mix in Canada and the US.
How many of our black Muslim brothers were turned down by Muslim Pakistani parents who will absolutely will not allow their daughters to marry a black person? They were potential Muslim husbands. The preference for superficial requirements for brides such as lighter skin tone and all the classic, idiotic cultural wants for our women to be considered.
The simple: “it is not allowed for women . . .” is not working out for us in the west and severe damage is occurring. Its not an issue of “lifestyle” as you often naively state, it is one where women are being killed by family members directly as a result of their religious (mis)understanding – extremely dangerous.
How can anyone be “happy with their religion” as you put it – concerning this? Is this your feeble response?
Fortunately there are Muslims who are questioning this beyond a literalist reading, as the current status quo cannot continue much longer re: women, and allowances are being made – and this is occurring whether you like it or not Rehaam, so you deal with it.
Also deal with your ignorance about our Islamic scholars. You fear “change” so much, but you don’t even realize how much Islam has evolved over the centuries, all the rulings, all the variances according to geography, all the encompassing of local tradition in rulings. This is why Sharia rulings actually contradict each other, depending on location, on the same aspect or question raised. The Qur’an has not changed, but its application varies substantially. This is apparent. But I am sure you don’t understand this due to your limitations, not Islam’s.
No one is asking you to participate in something you don’t wish to Rehaam, so let those who have to deal with this deal with it. Considering your poor record of being completely unable to provide any solutions to problems, you’re not in a position to condemn or praise anyone. Defending the faith requires some knowledge about how it functions – and that is where your defense ends.
Rehaam, you initially asked “What kind of solutions are you looking for?” – I would say a solution where Muslim women did not end up dead, slaughtered due to marriage issues. How about that for starters?
Its amazing the straws you will clutch at to prove an incorrect point…..
You say
In Islam we have permanent marriage, temporary marriage (mut’ah) – centuries old, misyar marriage. The last two types contradict the original Qur’anic intent of marriage however became necessary due to circumstances. It is permitted due to “balancing the risk” of avoiding more serious issues as fornication, so scholars have allowed both mut’ah and misyar marriages.
Not mentioned in the Quran or sunnah? Your scholoars not mine….
Perhaps you would like to refer to 6.115 ‘Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.’
You say:
‘I would say a solution where Muslim women did not end up dead, slaughtered due to marriage issues. How about that for starters?’
How about you distinguish between the what the Quran has said and what people practice….
Islam doesn’t allow for that so what has misogynist practices you continuously refer to that you feel is a valid argument for changing the Quran. The social mix you try to add in to justify changing the Quran is based on people not following Islam Sarah, the very thing you’re advocating be changed….
You say:
‘No one is asking you to participate in something you don’t wish to Rehaam, so let those who have to deal with this deal with it’
With all due respect Sarah I dont think its up to you to decide who participates in this conversation – and I am doing something about it – Im trying for you to understand that their are women out their unmarried women who still don’t feel the need to change the meaning of the Quran to suit individual needs – even if those needs are mine….
You say:
Rehaam I realize you are a literalist and from that perspective none of the above makes any sense to you. Not even rulings from our great Shafi and Hanbali scholars which contradict each other re: marriage. I know your usual position of “it’s not allowed for Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men” but none of the above were allowed either for Muslim men – until they were allowed.
Youre wrong – the Quran allows muslim men to marry women of the book –
You say:
“In all honesty, personally, I am not convinced that the evidence prohibiting Muslim women from marrying a kitabi (Person of the Book, i.e., Christian or Jewish) is very strong. Muslim jurists took a very strong position on this matter, many of them going as far as saying if a Muslim woman marries a kitabi she is as good as an apostate. I think, and God knows best, that this position is not reasonable and the evidence supporting it is not very strong.
The evidence is mentioned in the Quran….do you not read it? Or are so reliant on your choice of scholars and youre intent on having made halal that which allah has made haram?
….your’e right on one thing I do have fear of people wanting to change something that Allah has said in black and white….but you can’t. sorry Sarah youre in a very small minority. Thankfully.
Rehaam: None of my points were incorrect.
You stated “Not mentioned in the Quran or sunnah? Your scholoars not mine….”.
I was referring to mut’ah and miyar marriages. They are not mentioned in the Qur’an yet these forms of marriages are permitted. Who permitted mut’ah (temporary) marriage? Answer: Our Prophet (pbuh). What about that?
As usual you missed the point that Islam and certainly our Prophet (pbuh) made allowances which affected not only our men but our women.
You stated “How about you distinguish between the what the Quran has said and what people practice….
Islam doesn’t allow for that so what has misogynist practices you continuously refer to that you feel is a valid argument for changing the Quran.” – Then why the allowances on variations of marriage by our greatest scholars? Are you going to accuse them of “changing” the Qur’an?
It’s because our scholars had to balance actual, existing problems in society which Muslims face and find solutions. This is something which you don’t seem to understand. If you don’t agree with this then your arguments should be aimed at scholars our Schools of Thought (not me) e.g. Shafi’is which permitted what is not mentioned in the Qur’an or actually contradict it.
You stated “With all due respect Sarah I dont think its up to you to decide who participates in this conversation – and I am doing something about it – Im trying for you to understand that their are women out their unmarried women who still don’t feel the need to change the meaning of the Quran to suit individual needs – even if those needs are mine….”
The participation I was referring to was interfaith marriage, not this blog conversation. Yes there are women who due to Qur’anic readings have lost all opportunity to have a husband, children, their own family. Considering the extent to which the Qur’an tries to be inclusive of these basics in life for our women, our circumstances are now ensuring that many Muslim women are denied this. Scholars are aware of this and are beginning to address it.
Just as our scholars permitted mut’ah and misyar marriages to avoid other problems, they realize they cannot leave many Muslim women to be alone their entire lives in a non-Muslim society. They realize the gross injustices of this situation and are slowly beginning to address it. They also recognize that inhumane crimes are being committed against Muslim women by their families due to existing religious laws and are concerned about it.
You stated: “Youre wrong – the Quran allows muslim men to marry women of the book”.
I know that and never stated the contrary. Read what I wrote again. I wrote that the Qur’an does “not” state that temporary mut’ah marriages mut’ah or misyar marriages (without any corresponding responsibility, financial etc toward the wife) are not the understanding in the Qur’an. Yet our Shafi scholars permitted these modified marriages while Hanbali scholars did not.
Meaning that mut’ah and misyar marriages were not permitted either for Muslim men, until they were allowed.
You just can’t seem to get past the male/female divide in this, you can’t seem to understand that the entire Qur’anic concept of marriage was modified. Your inability to accept or understand this results in your usual “Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women” – and you deny the already made allowances which affect both men and women – who are in short lived, temporary marriages or ones of convenient where no support or responsibilities are committed to the wife.
If Muslim women are not to receive any of their rights or support from Muslim men in such marriages and it is halal, then that would be similar to an interfaith marriage as well – re: issues of rights and responsibilities.
I am not in the “very small minority” as this question is being raised by many others as well due to the deplorable circumstances many Muslim women find themselves in minority situations.
That Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women is also based on the assumption that the children from such marriages be raised Muslim, as they are within an Islamic social/legal order. Today, in the west many children of such marriages are not Muslim. They either take their mother’s religion or have no religion. Do you think that was the Qur’anic intent as it “allows” such marriages?
Answer this Rehaam:
If marriage is permanent in the Qur’an with corresponding rights and responsibilities. If Muslims are to enter marriage with the intent of it being lifelong (with exceptions of marriage breakdown) – then “WHY” did Prophet Muhammad permit temporary marriage (mut’ah) at all? Are you going to accuse him of “changing” the Qur’an?
Here’s a big hint: did the Prophet (pbuh) make allowances due to changing circumstances that Muslims found themselves in, and did he do so for the greater good to avoid another negative situation? This is what our scholars today are examining.
Sarah, are you saying that the Prophet (pbuh) went againt what Allah ruled to be law. And if he did which I don’t believe to be the case – are you saying that he was right to and that Allah’s word should therefore be abrogated in favour of what His Prophet says – are you saying that a man could forsee a problem that was overlooked by Allah? Ans me that.
Rehaam you stated “Sarah, are you saying that the Prophet (pbuh) went againt what Allah ruled to be law. And if he did which I don’t believe to be the case – are you saying that he was right to and that Allah’s word should therefore be abrogated in favour of what His Prophet says – are you saying that a man could forsee a problem that was overlooked by Allah? Ans me that.”
Due to your absolute ignorance of Islamic history and rulings, re: “I don’t believe to be the case” (no surprise here) I will explain:
Before the battle of Khaibar, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) permitted temporary marriage. Narrated Salama Bin Al-Akwa: “In the year of Autas, Allah’s Messenger permitted a temporary marriage for three nights”. (Muslim, Bukhari)
Rabi Bin Sabra reported (Prophet Mohammad) said:
“I permitted you the temporary marriage of women”. But it was later reversed. (Muslim, Abu Daood, Nisai, Ibn-e-Majah).
This Sahih hadith shows that Prophet Muhammad first allowed “temporary marriages”:
Source: Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3253:
Rabi’ b. Sabra reported that his father went on an expedition with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) during the Victory of Mecca, and we stayed there for fifteen days (i.e. for thirteen full days and a day and a night), and Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) permitted us to contract temporary marriage with women. Each one of us had a cloaks, My cloak was worn out, whereas the cloak of my cousin was quite new. As we reached the lower or the upper side of Mecca, we came across a young woman like a young smart long-necked she-camel.
We said: Is it possible that one of us may contract temporary marriage with you? She said: What will you give me as a dower? Each one of us spread his cloak. She began to cast a glance on both the persons. My companion also looked at her when she was casting a glance at her side and he said: This cloak of his is worn out, whereas my cloak is quite new. She, however, said twice or thrice: There is no harm in (accepting) this cloak (the old one). So I contracted temporary marriage with her, and I did not come out (of this) until Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) declared it forbidden.”
From source: Sunnis agree that at the beginning of Islam mut’ah was permitted. Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (d. 606/1209), the famous Sunni theologian, writes in his Great Commentary on the Qur’an that mut’ah was first permitted.
The Prophet made a ‘lesser pilgrimage’ (umra) to Mecca, and the women of Mecca made themselves up especially for the occasion. Some of the Companions complained about their long separation from their wives, and the Prophet replied: ‘Then go and enjoy (istimta’) these women.’
Later the Caliph ‘Umar banned mut’ah with theses words: “Two mut’ah were practiced during the time of the Prophet (i.e. temporary marriage and mutat al-hajj),but I forbid both of them and will punish anyone who practices either”.
Umar also forbade Muslim men from marry non-Muslim women (as the Qur’an permits) due to circumstances facing Muslim women and marriage at that time.
There are many, many other references to the above and I cannot cite all of them here.
Rehaam, I am not stating whether the Prophet (pbuh) was right or wrong and went against what Allah ruled to be law (as you wrote). I am stating that he permitted marriage practices that were outside of the Qur’an due to circumstances Muslims were in.
This is a fact. If you don’t accept what the Prophet (pbuh) then that is your problem. If Muhammad (pbuh) permitted it, then Umar did not, then Umar forbade what was in the Qur’an and later it was reversed etc.
Your question should be directed to the Prophet (pbuh) and the Sahabah – and not me. I am only advising you of what is historical fact (as you don’t seem to know much about this) for the early ummah, what was documented, what actually happened and why – due to circumstances Muslims found them in.
Your literalist perspective cannot apparently understanding any rulings outside of the Qur’an – per the Prophet (pbuh), per the Sahabah, per early and great scholars who wrote extensive commentaries, and per all the adjustments made by Jurists to assist Muslims for centuries re: Sharia – where rulings contradicted other rulings according to location, custom and circumstance.
Info about misyar marriages from a source:
“Misyar marriage is defined as an official marital “relationship” between a man and a woman who do not live together, and where the husband is NOT financially responsible for a Misyar wife. Misyar can be a temporary arrangement, but unlike the Mut’a marriage, which ends on the expiration date of the contract, the Misyar has no certain date for divorce, and it is up to the man to divorce his wife whenever, or if ever, he feels like doing so. The difference between a Misyar marriage and a normal marriage, is that the couple does not live in one household but remain on a visitor’s basis.
The need for this type of marriage is, in part, the result of economic reality.
In Egypt, most young men cannot afford to get married and support a wife and long engagements are common. A Misyar marriage allows him to marry a girl who then stays with her parents. The bride’s parents feed and maintain her, and they meet on occasion for marital relations.
Misyar marriage has been practiced in Saudi Arabia and Egypt for many years. It was legalized in Saudi Arabia by a fatwa issued by Sheikh Abdel Aziz bin Baz and was officially legalized in Egypt by the Egyptian Sunni Imam Sheikh Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi in 1999. The Grand Mufti of Egypt is a staunch defender of Misyar marriage.
Note: there is NO financial responsibility for the husband towards his wife for maintenance etc (as the Qur’an clarifies as terms for a marriage) yet it is permissible according to the most conservative, religious Muslims in the world. It is an accommodation to avoid fornication without being a “full” marriage in defined Qur’anic terms.
Sarah, apologies as usual Im not able to get through your long winded and repetitive mails….I like to keep it short so I’ll put like this. I am a muslim (woman in a very similar situation to you) the Quran is my book – its clear what that book says. I have been given a personal responsibility to follow that book, not anyone else -I can read. Allah tells us to read IQRA.
So read Sarah, Allah will tell you in His book that His book is complete. What a Mufti says I dont care – Im not answerable for him – what the prophet said or did – (which was recorded 100s of years later )- if I find contradictory to the Quran I will not follow – neither will I believe its what the prophet (PBUH) advocated, he was a better muslim than me. I follow the Quran not Bukhari – where a sunnah or hadees elaborates on the Quran well and good where it goes against…I take responsibility for making my choices. Why do you run to muftis to allow a sin – do think them allowing it means that Allah allows it?
Rehaam, your answers are short as they are vacuous. You have no explanations for anything, unable to back up anything, unable to give examples, unable to dispute, unable to confirm.
– You don’t care what our great Muslim scholars say if it contradicts “your” limited understandings.
– You will not follow what our Prophet (pbuh) said or did if “you” find it contradictory to the Qur’an.
– You will not believe it’s “what the Prophet (pbuh) advocated” although the strongest hadiths exist as testimony. “Your” belief will override hadith.
– You deny the rulings of centuries of Islamic scholarship, as “your” understanding of the Qur’an surpasses theirs.
– Imam Bukhari’s collection, which is accepted for its great accuracy for centuries by the best Muslim minds, is denied by “you” if “your” extremely limited understanding of Islam doesn’t fit into “your” perceptions re: Bukhari.
– You deem our Muftis as people who “allow a sin” – although they qualify to be Muftis based on their superior knowledge of the Qur’an and Islamic teaching – of which “your” reading of the Qur’an is superior.
– You deem yourself knowledgeable enough to distinguish the difference “yourself” between sunnah and hadith, to draw a legal conclusion on what the Qur’an meant.
– You have no concept of the principle of abrogation (naskh) in the Qur’an and how it applies contextually (113 verses affected).
– You disregard all of the Islamic science,s if any result does not conform to “your” extremely limited thinking re: Qur’an.
– You have no concept of allowances made in Islam at all, if it contradicts “your” understanding.
It is incomprehensible that you think in such absolute ignorant terms but that is your choice to do so, so remain that way Rehaam, it is your prerogative to remain deaf, dumb and blind under the guise of “your” religious understanding. This is indoctrination at its worst.
Rehaam: As you claim to understand the Qur’an fully without the need to refer to any other Islamic sources then answer this:
Why are there only 3 prayers mentioned in the Qur’an (3 prayer times) and not 5? Are we then to pray only 3 times a day according to your logic?
Rehaam: You stated “Islam is a strong religion, strong people follow it -strong people implement it as much as they can in new environments hence the ease muslims have in the UK after 50 years weak people change it….”
The “ease Muslims have in the UK” – what ease are you referring to?
The Daily Telegraph reported in 2012 that in the UK:
– 75% of all Muslim women are unemployed
– While 50% of all Muslim men are unemployed (67.5% total)
– This change in unemployment, a staggering 350% rise from 13% for men and 18% for women in 2004
– Muslims are also on sick leave more than anyone else
– 2001 figures state that 24% of females and 21% of males claim disability
– Muslims are the most likely among all religious groups to be living in accommodation rented from the council or housing association (28%).
– 4% live rent-free (2004 figures).
– The total prison population in the UK amongst category A and B criminals (third degree criminals) is now 35-39% Muslim.
All this compounded with the polygamy debacle where Muslims are exploiting the financial benefits system of the UK to pay for their illegitimate wives.
What is this besides shameful? Financial exploitation is shameful and reflective of weakness. “Ease”? As Muslims claim to “implement Islam in new environments” – they should re-visit the meaning of shame in Islam first.
Note: My apologies to the many decent and upright Muslims in the UK who are hardworking, self sufficient and independent. Those who take responsibilities for their families and contribute to society. The above is not directed at you.
It is directed at Muslims who take the establishment of Muslim institutions as a sign of accomplishment, without looking at the overall condition of Muslims and their situation in British society, especially the blatant exploitation of public funds, which everyone is aware of.
Daily telegraph? … yes very reliable, perhaps sometimes Sarah you think you’re proving a point when you’re actually going off the point??? We/ re not discussing crime or unemployment here…as a reminder, 😉
You say:
‘You have no concept of allowances made in Islam at all, if it contradicts “your” understanding’
..Sarah, Allah has made pork haram but has given us an allowance of when we can have it:
‘He has only forbidden you carrion, blood and pork and what has been consecrated to other than Allah. But anyone who is forced to eat it-without desiring it or going to excess in it-commits no crime. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur’an, 2:173)’
Perhaps if you lived in a place where only pork and bread was sold you would say the bread isnt good enough and that pork should be made halal? Is that what you would do Sarah? You wouldnt live on bread if your faith depended on it would you?
Rehaam: You state we are not discussing unemployment or crime as if Muslims’ behavior does not matter. What is your point is stating “strong people implement it as much as they can in new environments hence the ease muslims have in the UK. . .” when a good portion are cheats, exploiters and criminals?
Can you not see the contradiction that whatever “implementations” have been made does not seem to have a positive affect of a good number of British Muslims? Why have they not learned that it is wrong to run immigration scams, welfare scams, get taxpayer funds to pay for their multiple wives, and the many other financial scams Muslims seem to be involved in the UK? To end up in jail for criminal behavior? Is this your idea of Islamic implementation in the UK?
Have strong faith in Allah but ensure you get your hands on every free penny possible – without working for it? Implementation without the accompany morality is useless. To defend polygamy in the UK, its related expenses paid by others – not the husband, is immoral and not a solution to our marriage crisis. Government funds are not meant to afford a Muslim man to play musical beds with his “wives”. Is this your idea of “implantation”? What a miserable record.
As someone who has no idea about how Islam functions Rehaam, you are not in a position to comment on my faith per “bread and pork” analogies. You foolishly choose to disregard all other sources of Islam and state your faith is based on your “personal” reliance to understand the Qur’an. If we all did that there would be 1.6 billion different understandings of Islam – the number of Muslims in the world. This is the most alarming aspect.
Correction: “implantation” should be “implementation”.
Per Islamic Scholar Dr. Tariq Ramadan (education includes Al Azhar Islamic University in Cairo) – excerpts:
“The issue of women has always been a priority in my commitment. I have kept questioning traditional interpretations and inviting Muslims to honest lucidity and critical reflection over the situation of women in Muslim majority societies and in communities settled in the West.
Islam has no problem with women, but Muslims do clearly appear to have serious problems with them. The issue of women is among those most widely affected by literalist readings of the Qur’an and of Prophetic traditions.
Neglecting the fact that the Revelation took place in a given context and that its transmission over a period of 23 years determines an orientation as to divine pedagogy, literalist readings freeze the text out of its context, of its internal progression, and of the ends of the global message.
They proceed by “reduction” and sometimes manage to justify interpretations that clearly contradict the overall message in its historical evolution or the model of behavior set by the Prophet of Islam.
Literalist interpretations integrate the patriarchal context of the time without any critical distance and associate women’s presence and role to their relation to men while the reformist approach reaches out beyond the historical context to extract fundamental objectives as to women’s identity and their status as autonomous beings.
The study of the writings and commentaries of early Ulama clearly shows that they were greatly influenced by their cultural environment. One can often observe that they unwittingly proceed by “projection” on the Texts, their substance and their objectives.
A contemporary faqih (Muslim jurist) or commentator must therefore perform a two-fold dialectical analysis:
1. The Scriptural sources must first be read in light of their context, and
2. then later commentaries must be read in light of the socio-cultural contexts of the scholars who produced them.
This process of deconstruction is difficult, but it makes it possible to critique the historical and cultural coating that has been projected onto (Islamic) primary sources.
The issue, then, is no longer only to know what the texts say about women, but rather to understand what was promoted, defended and prescribed concerning women’s being and power, in relation to the environment of the time.
The relationship between Texts and contexts must be studied and this will enable us to extract principles and objectives.
Texts do not speak by themselves and teachings are both synchronic and diachronic: the relation to time is crucial, and the relation to the context is imperative.
The full scope of the message, from the texts to the context of their expression and their objectives, must be grasped as an entity.
A literalist, strictly legal reading produced by men cannot, by definition, take up this challenge and meet its requirements.”
My note: In contrast – Salafist Muslims have become associated with literalist, strict and puritanical approaches to Islam. Salafists are in staunch opposition to the use of kalam (science of discourse), dialectics or speculative philosophy in theology.
Here lies the great divide between many Muslims.
Literal understandings which actually contradict the meaning of the Texts as stated by Islamic scholars (as they are simply “lifted” and perceive as “flat”) or understanding the meaning of Islam’s overall message within the correct context and historicity – including its intent.
Those who state they can simply read the Qur’an and understand it fully – need a reality check.
I must say in “most” (but not all) cases, the woman and her family’s own decisions lead to this problem. They reject proposals over and over again over superficial reasons when the girl is young, then the proposals stop coming and its everyone else’s fault and the non-Muslim men are better. Countless great Muslim men rejected because he’s too nice, he doesnt have a degree, he’s not tall enough, he’s not muscular, he’s not a dr/engineer, he’s not Hyderabadi or he’s not Punjabi, etc. Self-created problems.
Sarah, you believe ‘a good portion are cheats, exploiters and criminals? referring to muslims in the UK. This clearly expresses your ignorance of the British Asian and the generation that came from the sub continent…..Let me spell it out for you …..there are criminals and muslims everywhere – but muslims are able to practice their religion with ease in the UK….whether they do or not is their choice – so your point again is irrelevant…..
Contrary to your belief of muslims in the UK being cheats and blah blah blah also comprise of educated and successful women who can afford their keep very well – for them polygamy works well. They are self sufficient and are happy to enjoy having a partner and the freedom to live their lifestyle. So Sarah – I really dont know what things in N America are like – but life in the UK is good for muslims – we have established our way of life in the UK without compromising any laws and through diplomacy and working hard in the UK. We do not and did not give in and say lets change the Quran – we were stronger then that – it seems that the cheats, exploiters and criminals had a bit more character then our lazy and faithless N American counterparts.
….so not all people in the West are downtrodden by the weight of Islamic principles some actually practice them with joy not with regret….
‘As someone who has no idea about how Islam functions Rehaam, you are not in a position to comment on my faith per “bread and pork” analogies’.
How impressive…and you Sarah who refuses to follow what the Quran says and are intent on changing it are in no position to do so….no position at all and neither is anyone else…regardless of how ‘learned’ they or you pretend to be – youre not more learned than Allah – so learn what He has said….for he has said it clearly…..who one can and can not marry; when you can and cannot eat pork…..you are not in a position to make haram, halal….and neither will you get majority support for that….you are a minority – the majority have some respect for what the Quran says – especially when they see it in black and white….as you can….but choose to ignore…for your own weak needs…
Rehaam: Any educated Muslim woman who thinks its okay to be in a polygamous marriage in a western nation, without any legal rights, needs to get her head examined. But that is her freedom to do so, to play mistress to a man. Their lack of self respect is their business – all in the name of “their compromise”. Again, playing mistress is nothing new in history and now apparently our “educated and successful” women in the UK are doing so.
You stated they are “enjoying having a partner and the freedom to live their lifestyle”? So sex a few days here and there, the rest of the week to do what they want on their own, while their fake husband is busy in bed with yet another “educated and successful” woman. I hope for their professional sake, this “arrangement” they have with someone else’s husband (wife number 1, the real wife) doesn’t leak out to colleagues. Women in such positions are not looked upon too well.
Nice racket that some Muslims are running in the UK. As you stated “life in the UK is good for muslims” – no kidding – sexual and financial exploitation in the name of Islam – many others will still consider it shameful even if some of you have talked yourselves in the UK to deem this even remotely “respectable”. But you have the freedom to do so, whatever a person’s lifestyle choice is, is their business.
Muslim men talking desperate Muslim women with some money or career into “take care of themselves financially” – meaning the men do not need to contribute towards their part-time wives. Such men coming over for a while to spend time, before he disappears for a few days or weeks. What a scam. Is this Islam to you????
This is not happening in North America – not with educated and successful Muslim women. Perhaps we value self respect more than you may in the UK. Perhaps we don’t want to be involved with bed hopping men, whether or not it is “religiously okay”. Even non-Muslim women don’t want to be involved with men they know are definitely sleeping with other women. It is very sordid, unsavory and sleazy. This is not acceptable to many of us, and we would not be “happy” with this and that is our freedom to do so.
Re: “This clearly expresses your ignorance of the British Asian and the generation that came from the sub continent” – FYI: my ex-husband was a British-raised Pakistani who immigrated to Canada from England. I am more than familiar with this background. His father kept a second wife in the 1970s in England but later kicked out wife number 2, as he was not legally married to her to begin with, it wasn’t too hard. His mother having to keep quiet and endure all of this as she had 4 small children and no where to go.
As his father “practiced” his religion with wife number 2, my ex-husband commented on how he as a 12 year old watched this destroy his mother. All of them living in small, confined quarters. This incident was devastating to that family and they left England.
Continue with your racket Rehaam – it’s unfortunate that you are doing so in the name of Islam. You’re free to get into whatever “arrangement” you want – however many of us women still spell self-respect as S-E-L-F R-E-S-P-E-C-T, even if others may choose not to – their prerogative.
Clarification: the word “racket” is more of an American term that the British may not use as often. A racket is a service that is fraudulently offered to “solve a problem”. Racketeering is often associated with organized crime. Scam ridden, financial exploitation, encroachment onto legitimate “organizations” and the like.
‘FYI: my ex-husband was a British-raised Pakistani who immigrated to Canada from England’.
Wow Sarah! Your experience is vast! No wonder you feel you have the right to ignorantly comment on all muslims in the UK, you ex was British afterall!
‘I hope for their professional sake, this “arrangement” they have with someone else’s husband (wife number 1, the real wife) doesn’t leak out to colleagues. Women in such positions are not looked upon too well’.
Again are you saying this from your valued point of view or Qurans? Remember I dont really give a damn about your personal opinion…No 1 or No 2 or 3 or 4 – they are all real wives….in the Quran – and dont worry the second wife isnt too bad in the West including N America, we have unmarried mothers, women (and men) who have relations out of marriage, we have mistresses (that Sarah means a woman who is not married to the man she is having a relations with where the man is married)…so being a second wife really isnt a big deal……infact in the muslim community its growing – as it resolves situations – Allah understands our nature better than you Sarah…and that is why this provision is made….its made for both men and women to benefit from….
The ‘bed hopping men? Could you be referring to the Prophet (PBUH) because he had more than one wife? Tut, tut tut….perhaps you need to think about what youre saying?
No ones asking you to like it or follow it…but you cannot change it ..you think being a second wife is lacking in self respect? Really is that what you think of the Prophets (PBUH) wives? (PBUT).
Such insecurity Sarah – yes it takes a woman to share what she loves for the wider good – a little girl who equates her husband to a teddy bear wouldn’t be able to do that…..but then its a secure muslijm woman who would be able to sacrifice her pleasures and only limit herself to marrying a muslim man – because the Quran irrevocably says so – an insecure woman would try to change the law – create a facade of faith – hiding behind the evils of culture to justify that change knowing full well that has nothing to do with how the Quran is practiced….such a woman relies heavily on the word of man because she is to weak in faith to rely on the word of Allah…..
Rehaam: Polygamy is an exception in the Qur’an for the care of women who may be destitute. The conditions in marriage are that the husband treats all his wives equally and takes responsibility for them. The Prophet (pbuh) was monogamous during his marriage to Khadija. After her death he married widows and other women for strategic alliances. He was also practicing polygamy under the conditions of 7th century Arabia.
The Prophet (pbuh) was not like the men today, who have taken this exception to polygamy and turned it into some convenience. There is a striking difference.
Your position is very ironic re: “educated and successful women who can afford their keep very well – for them polygamy works well. They are self sufficient and are happy to enjoy having a partner and the freedom to live their lifestyle.”
Note the following re: Muslim women in the UK are compromising and entering into polygamous marriages:
– She has a part time husband
– She does not live with her husband
– She is self sufficient and does not require her husband’s financial support
– Her husband comes and goes according to schedule
– Her relationship has no legal status re: access to any legal rights under the law
– Her relationship is limited to conjugal visits as time permits
– The majority of the time, her husband is not involved in her life and she is “enjoying her freedom”
If the above accurately describes the condition of polygamous marriages between “educated and successful” Muslim women in the UK – then they in fact – actually in MISYAR marriages (which can be monogamous or polygamous). All of the above points include the conditions of a misyar marriage – something which you claim is “wrong” and “against the Qur’an” and “created by Mufti’s” etc.
How ironic Rehaam, that yet again you have no idea what you are defending or condemning. No clue. You have no idea that your promotion of polygamy is actually a promotion of misyar marriages. No clue – yet again.
‘How ironic Rehaam, that yet again you have no idea what you are defending or condemning. No clue. You have no idea that your promotion of polygamy is actually a promotion of misyar marriages. No clue – yet again’.
Sarah, what Im defending is in the Quran – what your defending is wishful thinking, striking indeed…
Rehaam: You don’t even understand the difference between Misyar marriages and non-Misyar marriages. In the Qur’an a man is financially responsible for the care of his wives, he is not some part time, drop in when you can husband. That is what these women have accepted and this is Misyar. Where is Misyar in the Qur’an?
How are these husbands with “self sufficient, educated and sucessful” wives complying with the Qur’anic definition of marriage – with all of its terms and responsibilities?
They are not complying according to this arrangement. Misyar is an accommodation in marriage (as accurately described within the compromise these women are making) – which you condemn, yet you are promoting. This is not defending the Qur’an as you put it.
You have no clue Rehaam, you really don’t know what you are talking about at all.
Rehaam: you stated “No wonder you feel you have the right to ignorantly comment on all muslims in the UK, you ex was British afterall!” – NO where did I state that my comment was on “all” Muslims in the UK. In fact, I even apologized to the good and decent Muslims in the UK who do not exploit the system as – in my post of March 10th, stating specifically that my comments were not directed at them. Learn to read.
‘Rehaam: You state we are not discussing unemployment or crime as if Muslims’ behavior does not matter. What is your point is stating “strong people implement it as much as they can in new environments hence the ease muslims have in the UK. . .” when a good portion are cheats, exploiters and criminals?
Can you not see the contradiction that whatever “implementations” have been made does not seem to have a positive affect of a good number of British Muslims? ‘
Sarah not knowing what the Quran has said is one thing…but you don’t even know what you’ve said….do you think you could do some learning first?!
Can you two feminazi idiots stop this publicly humiliating, embarrassing, crude, and super classy display of complete lack of manners and civility and complete lack of social sense????
All of us are tired of receiving notifications in our inbox of YOU TWO idiots fighting. What you both need to learn first is some manners before you even talk about any other thing. For God’s sake, how on Earth did you grow up. You and your parents should be ASHAMED!!
Please do the rest of the Muslims and the ENTIRE WORLD a favor and please do NOT PROCREATE!!
I sincerely hope may God protect any men whether Muslim or not from chavs like you! Ameen.
And you sidekick are pure class arn’t you:
As for sister Sarah, I totally agree with her. Its time all those hot non Muslim men (ONLY Blonde Caucasians please) who are yearning to spend the rest of their lives with us be allowed to have their birth right!
if you have issues with someone advocating for following the Quran and your reading skills are being tested to the hilt – then take yourself of this blog (unclick the box below).
Rehaam: Don’t worry about my level of learning. Worry about yours. You don’t know basic Islamic history, how lslamic laws are formulated, the development of Islamic thought, about our great scholars contributions due to your self proclaimed understanding of the Qur’an. Given this, the last thing you need to address is “my” level of learning.
My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended. I will removed myself from this discussion now.
I think Sarah is high frustration being single for so long but it appears she was exploited in many relationship
when she pointed to her abortion. Some of the things I know to guide present generation.
1) Children should be married as soon as they become mature.
2) A chaste man will marry a chaste woman ; An unchaste man will marry an unchaste woman. From this we can conclude a marriage between a chaste and unchaste couple will not survive.
3) On day of judgement , a woman can drag 4 men to hell along with herself – Father ,brother ,husband and son. So bloodrelation men are responsible to a woman.
4) Always keep away from adultery , alcohol and gambling.
5) Heavan is under mothers feet but father is key to heavan.
6) Among all thing permitted divorce is most hated before Allah.
7) Taqwa comes from restraint.
8)Polymamy is permitted only if you can treat them equally ; otherwise go for one.
9)Education is accorded very highly in Islam -Those who are in search of knowledge are in the way of Allah- Quranic and otherwise( science ,management , medicine ,psychology )
8) We differentiate a haram income from halal which most muslims do not realize today.
9) If there is wrong ,try to stop it; if you can stop it, tell it is wrong ,if you cannot tell it wrong, say it in heart it is wrong.
10) Muslim man marry muslim woman no matter how much non-muslim may appear good because he will take you to hellfire.
11) Have faith on the day of judgement. Have faith in your fate whether it is good or bad. Problem come from Allah and taken away by Allah. Allah never burdens a person more than he can bear.
12) Have good conduct with your fellow human beings. A person who saves a human has saved humanity.
13) Never be alone in a room with a person of opposite sex (non-mehram). Satan will tempt.
Most of the problem confronting muslims is due to sharp degradation in moral standard. There way a time not long ago when even non-muslim would deposit his treasure wealth for safety with a muslim. But today even a muslim does not trust a muslim .If you worked in middleast you will find most arab muslims to be the most frequent casual liars for even small things.
Even our religious leaders are guilty that except for namaz ,roza , zakat ; they mostly never go beyond to teach about speaking truth , helping needy and old, about halal income and expenditure ,being hardworking and not waste time , never backbiting .
Just a quick comment for Sarah if she is still around.
Firstly, the choices of muslim men and women today are more or less equal, they can only marry muslim women. How is that? Because very few of the ‘people of the book’ today are truly ‘believers’ and so muslim men true to the spirit of Islam cannot marry the non-believing majority of the people of the book. I challenge anyone to find a true person of the book who really follows the torah or the old version of the bible as they were meant to be followed. How many Christians are there out there today who don’t believe in the trinity? Those are the only ones the muslim men can marry. The rest are polytheists.
Also, as a general point, yes, anyone who can read can derive the way of life from the Quran, there are clear verses to be followed literally, so accusing anyone of being a ‘literalist’ is an empty argument.
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, “We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord.” And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
I am a 51 year old Catholic never married woman. I just read a fascinating piece on how American millenials are not interested in marriage and a global trend against marriage at least in some countries. I feel those of us who continue to dream of marrying and value marriage highly are doing more than just being lonely for our “prince charming.” I believe marriage is a part of the fabric of society, weaving together religion, culture, tradition – the entire context for civilization and the raising of children. It is understandable and positive I think that there would be differences in families that are Western and Christian vs. families that are Muslim. Where there are blended famliies I think it is clear there will be conflict regarding religion, culture and tradition practiced and passed down to the next generation. What is most important I think is that in valuing marriage so highly religious people, whether Muslim, Christian, etc., are not just valuing marriage, but are valuing religion, culture, tradition, civilization, etc. We are traditional people believing in a traditional way of life in a world that, for whatever reason, seems to consider these things irrelevant. With that, I believe, is a decrease in a sense of commitment in all areas of life, including commerce, of people to people. It is as though all “relationships” whether business or personal are loosely held and there is no desire for contractual commitment and the responsibilities that go with it. I believe this is a wrong turn for society in general and is linked to the disrespect for the institution of marriage.
Clarification: the word “bat” is rather an American term that the British are not entitled to so often. A bat is a service that is offered in a fraudulent manner to “solve a problem.” Blackmail is often associated with organized crime. Scam ridden, financial exploitation, attacks on legitimate “organizations” and the like.
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